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Managers Thread; Spain sack Lopetegui. Yes, really.
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Topic Started: 21 May 2016, 09:07 PM (998,225 Views)
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williebhoy
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22 Jan 2018, 04:55 PM
Post #6621
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Quick make a move for Mancini from Zenit....experienced and wants back into International football....playing at world cups might be a problem though !!
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Pussyfoot
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22 Jan 2018, 04:56 PM
Post #6622
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- Corky Buczek
- 22 Jan 2018, 04:46 PM
- Pussyfoot
- 22 Jan 2018, 04:31 PM
- Corky Buczek
- 22 Jan 2018, 04:24 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I disagree, you say he had to go. I say they should ask him back. Scotland have done nothing for twenty years, I think they were more on track with Gordon than at any point in that period. Levein, Bertie, the two absconders, Burley? You get back to that stuff, I think they should beg Gordon to come back and continue his ideas of making the Celtic side the nucleus of his operations, if he had been in a position to do that earlier then you have to think, based on latter form, he would have been okay.
Where do I start ? I would argue that Smith and Mcleish were far better Scotland managers. Yes he was better than Burley and Levein - but that says more about them than it does about Strachan. As for Berti he did at least manage a play off place. They made it so much easier to qualify for Euro 2016 and Strachan couldn't manage even to finish in the top 3. You say making Celtic the nucleus of his operations - does that include Leigh Griffiths who was deemed not good enough for Lithuania at home or McGregor who was overlooked for the likes of Bannan and Snodgrass and who are struggling to make the first teams of their clubs ? We were going nowhere fast under Strachan. And its revisionism to suggest otherwise. Smith and the effing Cat? They weren't committed to the job ffs, let's not use them as they were never hanging about in any case.
We had many, many contributors on here aghast at the thought of Griffiths playing for Celtic yet Strachan was wrong to delay in picking him to represent his country? You don't believe there had to be some consideration in that case?
I can think of worse than Bannan and Snoddy you could have chose in fairness to that point but again it illustrates the caliber of player available, I've already stated this was a mistake to rely on the Anglo contingent. We have players coming through now though and I think they'd have learned a lot, as Scott Brown has done, from a football man of substance like Strachan..
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Corky Buczek
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22 Jan 2018, 05:08 PM
Post #6623
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- Pussyfoot
- 22 Jan 2018, 04:56 PM
- Corky Buczek
- 22 Jan 2018, 04:46 PM
- Pussyfoot
- 22 Jan 2018, 04:31 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Where do I start ? I would argue that Smith and Mcleish were far better Scotland managers. Yes he was better than Burley and Levein - but that says more about them than it does about Strachan. As for Berti he did at least manage a play off place. They made it so much easier to qualify for Euro 2016 and Strachan couldn't manage even to finish in the top 3. You say making Celtic the nucleus of his operations - does that include Leigh Griffiths who was deemed not good enough for Lithuania at home or McGregor who was overlooked for the likes of Bannan and Snodgrass and who are struggling to make the first teams of their clubs ? We were going nowhere fast under Strachan. And its revisionism to suggest otherwise.
Smith and the effing Cat? They weren't committed to the job ffs, let's not use them as they were never hanging about in any case. We had many, many contributors on here aghast at the thought of Griffiths playing for Celtic yet Strachan was wrong to delay in picking him to represent his country? You don't believe there had to be some consideration in that case? I can think of worse than Bannan and Snoddy you could have chose in fairness to that point but again it illustrates the caliber of player available, I've already stated this was a mistake to rely on the Anglo contingent. We have players coming through now though and I think they'd have learned a lot, as Scott Brown has done, from a football man of substance like Strachan.. Sheer revisionism
Smith and McLeish achieved results against France that Strachan would never have done. Mcleish got us close in a group against France and Italy - two team that would contest a World Cup final a few years later. Is Strachan more loyal than those two - probably although Strachan's allegiance was never put to the test - we do know however what McGhee does when a better offer comes along.
When I heard how Lars Lagerbeck told the Iceland players that they were about to play the most over-rated team in the world prior to their last 16 EC game against England, I immediately thought about how that would differ from Strachan. WGS would be full of "these are big EPL guys on £50K a week" etc.
As for your points about Griffiths, LG had just been pivotal in getting Celtic into the CL group stages. I know of no one - other than WGS - who would have picked the likes of Chris Martin ahead of him for that game against Lithuania and to say otherwise is nonsense. Bannan and Snodgrass had not kicked a ball in some time and to play them ahead of McGregor and McGinn was totally idiotic but it sums up Strachan's perverse stubbornness. You say he would learn lessons well I'm afraid given his "dog in the manger" attitude that is one thing Strachan never did.
Strachan was a good Celtic manager for three seasons but he should have left in 2008. He has done nowt since. His time was up and the SFA made the right decision in binning him. They have since right royally effed up appointing his successor. that doesn't mean WGS should still be in the job.
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Forza
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22 Jan 2018, 05:16 PM
Post #6624
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- Corky Buczek
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:08 PM
- Pussyfoot
- 22 Jan 2018, 04:56 PM
- Corky Buczek
- 22 Jan 2018, 04:46 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Smith and the effing Cat? They weren't committed to the job ffs, let's not use them as they were never hanging about in any case. We had many, many contributors on here aghast at the thought of Griffiths playing for Celtic yet Strachan was wrong to delay in picking him to represent his country? You don't believe there had to be some consideration in that case? I can think of worse than Bannan and Snoddy you could have chose in fairness to that point but again it illustrates the caliber of player available, I've already stated this was a mistake to rely on the Anglo contingent. We have players coming through now though and I think they'd have learned a lot, as Scott Brown has done, from a football man of substance like Strachan..
Sheer revisionism Smith and McLeish achieved results against France that Strachan would never have done. Mcleish got us close in a group against France and Italy - two team that would contest a World Cup final a few years later. Is Strachan more loyal than those two - probably although Strachan's allegiance was never put to the test - we do know however what McGhee does when a better offer comes along. When I heard how Lars Lagerbeck told the Iceland players that they were about to play the most over-rated team in the world prior to their last 16 EC game against England, I immediately thought about how that would differ from Strachan. WGS would be full of "these are big EPL guys on £50K a week" etc. As for your points about Griffiths, LG had just been pivotal in getting Celtic into the CL group stages. I know of no one - other than WGS - who would have picked the likes of Chris Martin ahead of him for that game against Lithuania and to say otherwise is nonsense. Bannan and Snodgrass had not kicked a ball in some time and to play them ahead of McGregor and McGinn was totally idiotic but it sums up Strachan's perverse stubbornness. Strachan was a good Celtic manager for three seasons but he should have left in 2008. He has done nowt since. His time was up and the SFA made the right decision in binning him. They have since right royally effed up appointing his successor. that doesn't mean WGS should still be in the job. Lithuania at home was in October 2016, during the 2016/17 season. Barry Bannan played in 43 league games that season and had about 3600 minutes of game time. Wasn't exactly a rubbish season for them either. They finished fourth and lost in the play off semis on penalties.
At the time of the Lithuania game Snodgrass was still at Hull, and was one of their main men, hence the move to West Ham come January. He's since played virtually every league game since joining Villa on loan.
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Pussyfoot
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22 Jan 2018, 05:22 PM
Post #6625
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- Corky Buczek
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:08 PM
- Pussyfoot
- 22 Jan 2018, 04:56 PM
- Corky Buczek
- 22 Jan 2018, 04:46 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Smith and the effing Cat? They weren't committed to the job ffs, let's not use them as they were never hanging about in any case. We had many, many contributors on here aghast at the thought of Griffiths playing for Celtic yet Strachan was wrong to delay in picking him to represent his country? You don't believe there had to be some consideration in that case? I can think of worse than Bannan and Snoddy you could have chose in fairness to that point but again it illustrates the caliber of player available, I've already stated this was a mistake to rely on the Anglo contingent. We have players coming through now though and I think they'd have learned a lot, as Scott Brown has done, from a football man of substance like Strachan..
Sheer revisionism Smith and McLeish achieved results against France that Strachan would never have done. Mcleish got us close in a group against France and Italy - two team that would contest a World Cup final a few years later. Is Strachan more loyal than those two - probably although Strachan's allegiance was never put to the test - we do know however what McGhee does when a better offer comes along. When I heard how Lars Lagerbeck told the Iceland players that they were about to play the most over-rated team in the world prior to their last 16 EC game against England, I immediately thought about how that would differ from Strachan. WGS would be full of "these are big EPL guys on £50K a week" etc. As for your points about Griffiths, LG had just been pivotal in getting Celtic into the CL group stages. I know of no one - other than WGS - who would have picked the likes of Chris Martin ahead of him for that game against Lithuania and to say otherwise is nonsense. Bannan and Snodgrass had not kicked a ball in some time and to play them ahead of McGregor and McGinn was totally idiotic but it sums up Strachan's perverse stubbornness. Strachan was a good Celtic manager for three seasons but he should have left in 2008. He has done nowt since. His time was up and the SFA made the right decision in binning him. They have since right royally effed up appointing his successor. that doesn't mean WGS should still be in the job. Hypothetical garbage. What we know is that the Cat and the Cardigan effed off, we know this because it actually happened, this is reality.
If you'd read my previous posts I'd stated that Strachan made mistakes, I believe when he had the opportunity he switched, too late to qualify, to a Celtic spine. I don't think we will see the likes of your hatted friend come in and continue with that policy. What do you see in the future that made it so apparently vital that Strachan left?
Who do you see coming in and who do you realistically want to come in? this isn't a player thread, we should all have a good idea of who would do a job in this role, particularly if we know who shouldn't be in place.
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Pussyfoot
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22 Jan 2018, 05:26 PM
Post #6626
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- Forza
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:16 PM
- Corky Buczek
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:08 PM
- Pussyfoot
- 22 Jan 2018, 04:56 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Sheer revisionism Smith and McLeish achieved results against France that Strachan would never have done. Mcleish got us close in a group against France and Italy - two team that would contest a World Cup final a few years later. Is Strachan more loyal than those two - probably although Strachan's allegiance was never put to the test - we do know however what McGhee does when a better offer comes along. When I heard how Lars Lagerbeck told the Iceland players that they were about to play the most over-rated team in the world prior to their last 16 EC game against England, I immediately thought about how that would differ from Strachan. WGS would be full of "these are big EPL guys on £50K a week" etc. As for your points about Griffiths, LG had just been pivotal in getting Celtic into the CL group stages. I know of no one - other than WGS - who would have picked the likes of Chris Martin ahead of him for that game against Lithuania and to say otherwise is nonsense. Bannan and Snodgrass had not kicked a ball in some time and to play them ahead of McGregor and McGinn was totally idiotic but it sums up Strachan's perverse stubbornness. Strachan was a good Celtic manager for three seasons but he should have left in 2008. He has done nowt since. His time was up and the SFA made the right decision in binning him. They have since right royally effed up appointing his successor. that doesn't mean WGS should still be in the job.
Lithuania at home was in October 2016, during the 2016/17 season. Barry Bannan played in 43 league games that season and had about 3600 minutes of game time. Wasn't exactly a rubbish season for them either. They finished fourth and lost in the play off semis on penalties. At the time of the Lithuania game Snodgrass was still at Hull, and was one of their main men, hence the move to West Ham come January. He's since played virtually every league game since joining Villa on loan. Well, that ends discussions, can't be bothered with pish being made up to win a point.
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Corky Buczek
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22 Jan 2018, 05:30 PM
Post #6627
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- Forza
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:16 PM
- Corky Buczek
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:08 PM
- Pussyfoot
- 22 Jan 2018, 04:56 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Sheer revisionism Smith and McLeish achieved results against France that Strachan would never have done. Mcleish got us close in a group against France and Italy - two team that would contest a World Cup final a few years later. Is Strachan more loyal than those two - probably although Strachan's allegiance was never put to the test - we do know however what McGhee does when a better offer comes along. When I heard how Lars Lagerbeck told the Iceland players that they were about to play the most over-rated team in the world prior to their last 16 EC game against England, I immediately thought about how that would differ from Strachan. WGS would be full of "these are big EPL guys on £50K a week" etc. As for your points about Griffiths, LG had just been pivotal in getting Celtic into the CL group stages. I know of no one - other than WGS - who would have picked the likes of Chris Martin ahead of him for that game against Lithuania and to say otherwise is nonsense. Bannan and Snodgrass had not kicked a ball in some time and to play them ahead of McGregor and McGinn was totally idiotic but it sums up Strachan's perverse stubbornness. Strachan was a good Celtic manager for three seasons but he should have left in 2008. He has done nowt since. His time was up and the SFA made the right decision in binning him. They have since right royally effed up appointing his successor. that doesn't mean WGS should still be in the job.
Lithuania at home was in October 2016, during the 2016/17 season. Barry Bannan played in 43 league games that season and had about 3600 minutes of game time. Wasn't exactly a rubbish season for them either. They finished fourth and lost in the play off semis on penalties. At the time of the Lithuania game Snodgrass was still at Hull, and was one of their main men, hence the move to West Ham come January. He's since played virtually every league game since joining Villa on loan. My point re Bannan and Snodgrass was for the group games this season when they were picked before McGinn and McGregor - eg Slovakia at home and Slovenia way.
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Corky Buczek
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22 Jan 2018, 05:32 PM
Post #6628
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- Pussyfoot
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:26 PM
- Forza
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:16 PM
- Corky Buczek
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:08 PM
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Lithuania at home was in October 2016, during the 2016/17 season. Barry Bannan played in 43 league games that season and had about 3600 minutes of game time. Wasn't exactly a rubbish season for them either. They finished fourth and lost in the play off semis on penalties. At the time of the Lithuania game Snodgrass was still at Hull, and was one of their main men, hence the move to West Ham come January. He's since played virtually every league game since joining Villa on loan.
Well, that ends discussions, can't be bothered with pish being made up to win a point. Made up pish ? You mean like the objections to Griffiths starting the Lithuania games.
My point re Bannan and Snodgrass starting ahead of McGregor and McGinn was in respect of the games earlier THIS season. I thought that was pretty obvious that I was not referring to the Lithuania game.
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popeyed
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22 Jan 2018, 05:37 PM
Post #6629
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Climbing walls while sittin' in a chair.
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I remember all my life Raining down as cold as ice Shadows of a man A face through a window cryin' in the night The night goes into Morning just another day Happy people pass my way Looking in their eyes I see a memory I never realized How happy you made me
Oh Malky
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dazabhoy67
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22 Jan 2018, 05:37 PM
Post #6630
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Off treasure hunting in Holland
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- Ponder Stibbons
- 22 Jan 2018, 03:51 PM
- mikebhoy
- 22 Jan 2018, 03:44 PM
I’m sorry but 
No need to apologise, it's hilarious.  Not an amazingly original thought, but the whole organisation needs gutting, from top to toe. Have they asked Ferguson? Would they? Would he entertain it? They should be begging him to come out of retirement for the gig.
He should have been first choice from the start.
Obviously he may not be interested and could reject it but ffs, it wouldn't be half as embarrassing as the Michael effing O'Neill rejection.
He is the greatest Scottish manager who has never managed the national team.
At least pick up the phone and see if he fancies a semi retirement job.
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Pussyfoot
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22 Jan 2018, 05:38 PM
Post #6631
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- 22 Jan 2018, 05:26 PM
- Forza
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:16 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Well, that ends discussions, can't be bothered with pish being made up to win a point.
Made up pish ? You mean like the objections to Griffiths starting the Lithuania games. My point re Bannan and Snodgrass starting ahead of McGregor and McGinn was in respect of the games earlier THIS season. I thought that was pretty obvious that I was not referring to the Lithuania game. I see any ideas yet regards your preferred management team?
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Corky Buczek
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22 Jan 2018, 05:39 PM
Post #6632
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- Pussyfoot
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:22 PM
- Corky Buczek
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:08 PM
- Pussyfoot
- 22 Jan 2018, 04:56 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Sheer revisionism Smith and McLeish achieved results against France that Strachan would never have done. Mcleish got us close in a group against France and Italy - two team that would contest a World Cup final a few years later. Is Strachan more loyal than those two - probably although Strachan's allegiance was never put to the test - we do know however what McGhee does when a better offer comes along. When I heard how Lars Lagerbeck told the Iceland players that they were about to play the most over-rated team in the world prior to their last 16 EC game against England, I immediately thought about how that would differ from Strachan. WGS would be full of "these are big EPL guys on £50K a week" etc. As for your points about Griffiths, LG had just been pivotal in getting Celtic into the CL group stages. I know of no one - other than WGS - who would have picked the likes of Chris Martin ahead of him for that game against Lithuania and to say otherwise is nonsense. Bannan and Snodgrass had not kicked a ball in some time and to play them ahead of McGregor and McGinn was totally idiotic but it sums up Strachan's perverse stubbornness. Strachan was a good Celtic manager for three seasons but he should have left in 2008. He has done nowt since. His time was up and the SFA made the right decision in binning him. They have since right royally effed up appointing his successor. that doesn't mean WGS should still be in the job.
Hypothetical garbage. What we know is that the Cat and the Cardigan effed off, we know this because it actually happened, this is reality. If you'd read my previous posts I'd stated that Strachan made mistakes, I believe when he had the opportunity he switched, too late to qualify, to a Celtic spine. I don't think we will see the likes of your hatted friend come in and continue with that policy. What do you see in the future that made it so apparently vital that Strachan left? Who do you see coming in and who do you realistically want to come in? this isn't a player thread, we should all have a good idea of who would do a job in this role, particularly if we know who shouldn't be in place. The Cat offed up ? Really. One game at home against a strong Italy side from qualifying for 2008 EC (Italy btw would lose to the eventual winners on penalties) ? If thats failure then WGS is up there with Graham Taylor.
You say he made mistakes - yep and the point is his stubbornness prevented him from learning from them. Under Strachan we would be doomed to perverse line-ups and failing to win fairly straightforward games when it mattered. We were going nowhere thats why he had to go. Michael O'Neill is hardly a world beater but would have been a step up. Clearly he was interested in taking the job as he wouldn't have talked to the SFA if he wasn't. As mentioned just because Regan is a total imbecile doesn't mean that Strachan is a good manager and should stay in the job.
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Corky Buczek
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22 Jan 2018, 05:40 PM
Post #6633
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- 22 Jan 2018, 05:26 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Made up pish ? You mean like the objections to Griffiths starting the Lithuania games. My point re Bannan and Snodgrass starting ahead of McGregor and McGinn was in respect of the games earlier THIS season. I thought that was pretty obvious that I was not referring to the Lithuania game.
I see  any ideas yet regards your preferred management team? I'd have offered Michael O'Neill a bigger salary than he is getting at Northern Ireland. that clear enough ?
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Pussyfoot
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22 Jan 2018, 05:42 PM
Post #6634
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- 22 Jan 2018, 05:22 PM
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- 22 Jan 2018, 05:08 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Hypothetical garbage. What we know is that the Cat and the Cardigan effed off, we know this because it actually happened, this is reality. If you'd read my previous posts I'd stated that Strachan made mistakes, I believe when he had the opportunity he switched, too late to qualify, to a Celtic spine. I don't think we will see the likes of your hatted friend come in and continue with that policy. What do you see in the future that made it so apparently vital that Strachan left? Who do you see coming in and who do you realistically want to come in? this isn't a player thread, we should all have a good idea of who would do a job in this role, particularly if we know who shouldn't be in place.
The Cat offed up ? Really. One game at home against a strong Italy side from qualifying for 2008 EC ? If thats failure then WGS is up there with Graham Taylor. You say he made mistakes - yep and the point is his stubbornness prevented him from learning from them. Under Strachan we would be doomed to perverse line-ups and failing to win fairly straightforward games when it mattered. We were going nowhere thats why he had to go. Michael O'Neill is hardly a world beater but would have been a step up. Clearly he was interested in taking the job as he wouldn't have talked to the SFA if he wasn't. As mentioned just because Regan is a total imbecile doesn't mean that Strachan is a good manager and should stay in the job. Michael O'Neill your final answer then?
Let's assume for some reason or other he doesn't want the job....
Edit: confirmed above I see, fair enough it's all about opinions
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Adam Smith 11
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22 Jan 2018, 05:48 PM
Post #6635
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Contract up for renewal, now on a diet and trying harder.
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- popeyed
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:37 PM
I remember all my life Raining down as cold as ice Shadows of a man A face through a window cryin' in the night The night goes into Morning just another day Happy people pass my way Looking in their eyes I see a memory I never realized How happy you made me
Oh Malky Could It Be Malky?
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popeyed
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22 Jan 2018, 05:52 PM
Post #6636
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Climbing walls while sittin' in a chair.
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- Adam Smith 11
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:48 PM
- popeyed
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:37 PM
I remember all my life Raining down as cold as ice Shadows of a man A face through a window cryin' in the night The night goes into Morning just another day Happy people pass my way Looking in their eyes I see a memory I never realized How happy you made me
Oh Malky
Could It Be Malky? A Nice Boy Like Malky?
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Corky Buczek
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22 Jan 2018, 05:52 PM
Post #6637
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- 22 Jan 2018, 05:22 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The Cat offed up ? Really. One game at home against a strong Italy side from qualifying for 2008 EC ? If thats failure then WGS is up there with Graham Taylor. You say he made mistakes - yep and the point is his stubbornness prevented him from learning from them. Under Strachan we would be doomed to perverse line-ups and failing to win fairly straightforward games when it mattered. We were going nowhere thats why he had to go. Michael O'Neill is hardly a world beater but would have been a step up. Clearly he was interested in taking the job as he wouldn't have talked to the SFA if he wasn't. As mentioned just because Regan is a total imbecile doesn't mean that Strachan is a good manager and should stay in the job.
Michael O'Neill your final answer then? Let's assume for some reason or other he doesn't want the job.... Edit: confirmed above I see, fair enough it's all about opinions My second choice would probably be Steve Clarke. Thats basing it however on a few months at Rugby Park which is not a lot I'll grant you. I also wonder who will take the job given that its pretty obvious that they won't be first choice.
Given the flack that Celtic have given the SFA over the end of season friendly arrangements today (and correctly so) it is looking increasing like a job that will be difficult to sell.
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Rosco67
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22 Jan 2018, 05:54 PM
Post #6638
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We're here to eff shampoo up!
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- dazabhoy67
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:37 PM
- Ponder Stibbons
- 22 Jan 2018, 03:51 PM
- mikebhoy
- 22 Jan 2018, 03:44 PM
I’m sorry but 
No need to apologise, it's hilarious.  Not an amazingly original thought, but the whole organisation needs gutting, from top to toe. Have they asked Ferguson? Would they? Would he entertain it?
They should be begging him to come out of retirement for the gig. He should have been first choice from the start. Obviously he may not be interested and could reject it but ffs, it wouldn't be half as embarrassing as the Michael effing O'Neill rejection. He is the greatest Scottish manager who has never managed the national team.At least pick up the phone and see if he fancies a semi retirement job.
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paddysloan
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22 Jan 2018, 05:57 PM
Post #6639
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Much posting, such opinion, very controversial. wow.
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- PMSW
- 22 Jan 2018, 04:03 PM
No idea why Scotland would have wanted this guy anyway. His side is painful to watch. Probably so you would have a chance of qualifying for a tournament for the first time in over two decades.
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Pussyfoot
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22 Jan 2018, 05:58 PM
Post #6640
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- Corky Buczek
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:52 PM
- Pussyfoot
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:42 PM
- Corky Buczek
- 22 Jan 2018, 05:39 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Michael O'Neill your final answer then? Let's assume for some reason or other he doesn't want the job.... Edit: confirmed above I see, fair enough it's all about opinions
My second choice would probably be Steve Clarke. Thats basing it however on a few months at Rugby Park which is not a lot I'll grant you. I also wonder who will take the job given that its pretty obvious that they won't be first choice. Given the flack that Celtic have given the SFA over the end of season friendly arrangements today (and correctly so) it is looking increasing like a job that will be difficult to sell. The real hope is that eventually the SFA will be totally revamped or replaced by a modern thinking organisation less worried about where the bodies are buried and presenting a clear vision of where we are headed. They are so out of touch and laced in secrecy it's abhorrent.
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