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Brendan Rodgers; "I was born into Celtic"
Topic Started: 20 May 2016, 05:06 PM (2,287,902 Views)
dazabhoy67
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Zurawski 7
24 Nov 2017, 12:17 PM
commons forgetting some of the results he was a part of

Quote:
 
By KRIS COMMONS FOR THE SCOTTISH DAILY MAIL

Brendan Rodgers has deserved all of the praise that has come his way since his arrival at Celtic Park due to his team's impressive domestic dominance.

But given he is the highest paid manager in Celtic's history it is the nature of the beast that his record in Europe should come under scrutiny.

And, so far, Brendan has been responsible for Celtic's record defeat, a 7-0 Champions League loss in Barcelona.

He's also overseen the most embarrassing European defeat in the club's continental history, losing away to a Gibraltar pub team called Lincoln Red Imps.

And his Celtic team has won just one game in the Champions League group stages; a 3-0 victory away to Anderlecht on a night when the Belgian champions were well below par.

On Wednesday night, Celtic suffered their latest heavy Champions League reverse when they lost 7-1 away to Paris St Germain.

They also lost 3-0 to a rampant Bayern Munich side, who had over 20 shots on goal and could easily have scored six or seven.

After both of these games, Brendan has tried to look at the positives. But what are the positives in losing 7-1 - or in looking like you are going to ship seven goals?

Of course, when teams like PSG are at the races they can demolish you. That's why their players earn hundreds of thousands of pounds a week.

But when I played for Celtic under Neil Lennon we were able to close the financial gap and compete with the top teams in Europe.

In 2012-13, we beat Spartak Moscow, the Russian champions, home and away, and drew 0-0 at home with the Portuguese champions, Benfica. We could have won that Benfica match.

Barcelona beat us 2-1 in the Nou Camp but their winning goal only came in injury time - and we famously beat them 2-1 in the return at Celtic Park.

That was a really good Barcelona team, too, featuring Lionel Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Alexis Sanchez, and Dani Alves.

In fact, I believe that Barcelona side we beat at Celtic Park are a better team than this current Paris Saint-Germain outfit.

Barca were littered with World Cup winners and were hailed by many as arguably the best club side ever - but we not only competed with them, we beat them.

Under Neil Lennon, we didn't do an Invincible season or win a Treble like Brendan did last season. But we were expected to dominate Scottish football and if we won the league it was simply: 'job done.'

A club like Celtic will always be judged in Europe and competing at that level comes down to managerial skill.

It's about being organised, having a little bit of luck – and players performing out of their skin. In our case, Fraser Forster had a terrific match in goal against Barcelona.

After Paris on Wednesday night, people on Twitter were saying 'Celtic need a new goalkeeper or new defenders' but Brendan probably has better defenders than we had when we beat Barcelona.

That night we had Adam Mathews, Efe Ambrose, Kelvin Wilson and Mikael Lustig. These players weren't worth £20million but they were organised defensively.

So I don't think it's about the personnel. Brendan can't keep saying 'I won't change' when Celtic are losing three goals per game on average in Europe under his management.

He can't keep saying that Celtic are going to play the Celtic Way. The Celtic Way is not losing 7-0 and 7-1!

Something has to change. Everything Brendan does in preparing for domestic matches is about dominating possession, having a high press, keeping the ball, and creating chances.

But Celtic can't do that in Europe. I'm not saying they have to 'park the bus' but they have to be hard to beat. Celtic right now are not hard to beat. Results show that.

Since arriving at Celtic, everything Brendan has asked for he has been given. And the bottom line is a chairman and a board have to see improvement for all the investment that has been made.

Yes, he has taken the club back into the group stages twice. But have they improved enough in Europe?

The fact is many of Brendan's predecessors were able to get big results in Europe.

Martin O'Neill had it against Juventus, Gordon Strachan had it against AC Milan and Manchester United. Neil Lennon had it against Barcelona.

Brendan is still waiting for his big European result. Hopefully that will come in the latter stages of the Europa League.

But it will require a change of approach and some hard work out on the training ground.
That will be the same Kris Commons who was part of the side that flunked the 2013 campaign against AC Milan, Ajax and Barcelona. The same Kris Commons who was embarrassed in Switzerland against Sion. The same Kris Commons who was horsed by Molde and Malmo in recent years.

Guys like him should no better. Just another level 5 soup taker.
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BardseyCelt
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dazabhoy67
24 Nov 2017, 01:17 PM
Zurawski 7
24 Nov 2017, 12:17 PM
commons forgetting some of the results he was a part of

Quote:
 
By KRIS COMMONS FOR THE SCOTTISH DAILY MAIL

Brendan Rodgers has deserved all of the praise that has come his way since his arrival at Celtic Park due to his team's impressive domestic dominance.

But given he is the highest paid manager in Celtic's history it is the nature of the beast that his record in Europe should come under scrutiny.

And, so far, Brendan has been responsible for Celtic's record defeat, a 7-0 Champions League loss in Barcelona.

He's also overseen the most embarrassing European defeat in the club's continental history, losing away to a Gibraltar pub team called Lincoln Red Imps.

And his Celtic team has won just one game in the Champions League group stages; a 3-0 victory away to Anderlecht on a night when the Belgian champions were well below par.

On Wednesday night, Celtic suffered their latest heavy Champions League reverse when they lost 7-1 away to Paris St Germain.

They also lost 3-0 to a rampant Bayern Munich side, who had over 20 shots on goal and could easily have scored six or seven.

After both of these games, Brendan has tried to look at the positives. But what are the positives in losing 7-1 - or in looking like you are going to ship seven goals?

Of course, when teams like PSG are at the races they can demolish you. That's why their players earn hundreds of thousands of pounds a week.

But when I played for Celtic under Neil Lennon we were able to close the financial gap and compete with the top teams in Europe.

In 2012-13, we beat Spartak Moscow, the Russian champions, home and away, and drew 0-0 at home with the Portuguese champions, Benfica. We could have won that Benfica match.

Barcelona beat us 2-1 in the Nou Camp but their winning goal only came in injury time - and we famously beat them 2-1 in the return at Celtic Park.

That was a really good Barcelona team, too, featuring Lionel Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Alexis Sanchez, and Dani Alves.

In fact, I believe that Barcelona side we beat at Celtic Park are a better team than this current Paris Saint-Germain outfit.

Barca were littered with World Cup winners and were hailed by many as arguably the best club side ever - but we not only competed with them, we beat them.

Under Neil Lennon, we didn't do an Invincible season or win a Treble like Brendan did last season. But we were expected to dominate Scottish football and if we won the league it was simply: 'job done.'

A club like Celtic will always be judged in Europe and competing at that level comes down to managerial skill.

It's about being organised, having a little bit of luck – and players performing out of their skin. In our case, Fraser Forster had a terrific match in goal against Barcelona.

After Paris on Wednesday night, people on Twitter were saying 'Celtic need a new goalkeeper or new defenders' but Brendan probably has better defenders than we had when we beat Barcelona.

That night we had Adam Mathews, Efe Ambrose, Kelvin Wilson and Mikael Lustig. These players weren't worth £20million but they were organised defensively.

So I don't think it's about the personnel. Brendan can't keep saying 'I won't change' when Celtic are losing three goals per game on average in Europe under his management.

He can't keep saying that Celtic are going to play the Celtic Way. The Celtic Way is not losing 7-0 and 7-1!

Something has to change. Everything Brendan does in preparing for domestic matches is about dominating possession, having a high press, keeping the ball, and creating chances.

But Celtic can't do that in Europe. I'm not saying they have to 'park the bus' but they have to be hard to beat. Celtic right now are not hard to beat. Results show that.

Since arriving at Celtic, everything Brendan has asked for he has been given. And the bottom line is a chairman and a board have to see improvement for all the investment that has been made.

Yes, he has taken the club back into the group stages twice. But have they improved enough in Europe?

The fact is many of Brendan's predecessors were able to get big results in Europe.

Martin O'Neill had it against Juventus, Gordon Strachan had it against AC Milan and Manchester United. Neil Lennon had it against Barcelona.

Brendan is still waiting for his big European result. Hopefully that will come in the latter stages of the Europa League.

But it will require a change of approach and some hard work out on the training ground.
That will be the same Kris Commons who was part of the side that flunked the 2013 campaign against AC Milan, Ajax and Barcelona. The same Kris Commons who was embarrassed in Switzerland against Sion. The same Kris Commons who was horsed by Molde and Malmo in recent years.

Guys like him should no better. Just another level 5 soup taker.
Was just about to post similar. Incidentally the whole 'worst European result in our history' being 1-0 against Red Imps in a game we went on to win comfortably is bollocks. Losing 5-0 away to Bratislava is the worst European result.

Liked commons as a player but the guy doesn't have two brain cells to rub together.

EDIT: YES. YES. I know.
Edited by BardseyCelt, 24 Nov 2017, 01:24 PM.
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stevie21
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BardseyCelt
24 Nov 2017, 01:19 PM
dazabhoy67
24 Nov 2017, 01:17 PM
Zurawski 7
24 Nov 2017, 12:17 PM
commons forgetting some of the results he was a part of


Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
That will be the same Kris Commons who was part of the side that flunked the 2013 campaign against AC Milan, Ajax and Barcelona. The same Kris Commons who was embarrassed in Switzerland against Sion. The same Kris Commons who was horsed by Molde and Malmo in recent years.

Guys like him should no better. Just another level 5 soup taker.
Was just about to post similar. Incidentally the whole 'worst European result in our history' being 1-0 against Red Imps in a game we went on to win comfortably is bollocks. Losing 5-0 away to Bratislava when we had a 4 goal lead is the worst European result.

Liked commons as a player but the guy doesn't have two brain cells to rub together.
"Losing 5-0 away to Bratislava when we had a 4 goal lead is the worst European result." :ponder:

The 4 goal "lead" was the 2nd leg - I'm not sure I follow you here.
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Bodom Bhoy
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BardseyCelt
24 Nov 2017, 01:19 PM
Losing 5-0 away to Bratislava when we had a 4 goal lead is the worst European result.
:suspect:
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BardseyCelt
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Bodom Bhoy
24 Nov 2017, 01:22 PM
BardseyCelt
24 Nov 2017, 01:19 PM
Losing 5-0 away to Bratislava when we had a 4 goal lead is the worst European result.
:suspect:
Yep, completely misremembered that match. Have blocked it out for years anyway.

5-nil to Bratislava is still worse :lol:
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pieol
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BardseyCelt
24 Nov 2017, 01:19 PM
dazabhoy67
24 Nov 2017, 01:17 PM
Zurawski 7
24 Nov 2017, 12:17 PM
commons forgetting some of the results he was a part of


Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
That will be the same Kris Commons who was part of the side that flunked the 2013 campaign against AC Milan, Ajax and Barcelona. The same Kris Commons who was embarrassed in Switzerland against Sion. The same Kris Commons who was horsed by Molde and Malmo in recent years.

Guys like him should no better. Just another level 5 soup taker.
Was just about to post similar. Incidentally the whole 'worst European result in our history' being 1-0 against Red Imps in a game we went on to win comfortably is bollocks. Losing 5-0 away to Bratislava when we had a 4 goal lead is the worst European result.

Liked commons as a player but the guy doesn't have two brain cells to rub together.
Bratislava results were other way about . Whatever they are Red Imps aren't a pub team. Hyperbolic shampoo from Commons.
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dazabhoy67
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MILLIGANS ISLAND
24 Nov 2017, 12:42 PM
Dare I say it but commons has a point there.
Commons played in the Celtic team for 7 years, between 2010 and 2017. He had 1 outstanding result against Barcelona and managed to beat the Russians home and away in the same group to progress.

The rest of his Celtic Euro careers was a toss up between average and embarrassing. Malmo, Molde, Sion, Legia, Karagandy away with the added horsing from a piss poor AC Milan side at home, so much for hard to beat Kris. :suspect:
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Jimmy_Quinn's_Hattrick
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I think Xamax is a better candidate for 'Worst European Result', personally. Both Lincoln and Bratislava came in that pishy July period, with new managers and unfit, half-built squads: we also thumped both of them in the return game, and nearly overturned Bratislava at Celtic Park. Xamax was in November, six months into the managers time, with a Celtic team full of seasoned players, that didn't even come close to fixing it at Celtic Park. Far worse, in my opinion.

Commons is also being selective with European results in his time, I agree.
Edited by Jimmy_Quinn's_Hattrick, 24 Nov 2017, 01:30 PM.
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Franakamura
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There's a few sides to this.

Ultimately. Brendan has to learn to stem the flow of goals against these sides. I don't fancy a 6 or 7 goal defeat once a year in the champions league.

Flip side though is he can't legislate for individual mistakes once the players are out there and we seem to have a knack of forgetting the basics at this level.
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Joe the Baker
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I think Commons is pretty fair in that article.

The only bit I'd really disagree with is his line about Rodgers being given everything he has asked for.
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dazabhoy67
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Joe the Baker
24 Nov 2017, 01:46 PM
I think Commons is pretty fair in that article.

The only bit I'd really disagree with is his line about Rodgers being given everything he has asked for.
Most of the article is fine, but its the person spouting it while holding up their 1 good European campaign to have a go at the current sides.

As someone said above selective, too easy to stick the boot in, when you could easily have a go but alleviate it with, look I've been there myself, and list a couple of piss poor results.
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CHR15
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puroresu_boy
23 Nov 2017, 06:48 PM
CHR15
23 Nov 2017, 06:00 PM
puroresu_boy
23 Nov 2017, 05:03 PM

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Because that's how the team is set up every single time we play irrespective of opposition. What did you think they'd setup to do?
A balanced team where the aim was to try and break quickly which we did quite a few times.

To assume or guess we were sent out to go toe 2 toe based on how we play in other games is kinda lazy.
Based on how we play in every single game. There's nothing lazy about it. That's exactly what happened. And we got horsed.
Edited by CHR15, 24 Nov 2017, 02:06 PM.
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markovan
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Why don't we just wait here for a while... see what happens.
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Hairytoes
23 Nov 2017, 11:24 AM
Sorry, I just ain't ever getting off this bus.
Spoiler: click to toggle


Edited by markovan, 24 Nov 2017, 02:25 PM.
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24 Nov 2017, 01:15 PM
It's not about realism, it's about a) lack of good defenders b) lack of quality players at this level c) and getting blootered by the inform money rich team in Europe. Who have a razor sharp attack which ruthlessly exploited a) and b)

Do you absolve the manager/coaching staff of all blame, then? Not trying to argue, just curious if that's how you see it. :thumbsup:
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Walter Sobchak
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Do you know what ? I got one of my best ever moments of supporting Celtic on Wednesday night when we scored against them. Which came about through us pressing like feck in the first minute and forcing Alves into a bad pass. Sitting deep and hoping we don’t get effed doesn’t produce moments like that.

It also doesn’t produce 3-0 wins away from home against Anderlecht.

If we take a few pumping along the way but ultimately become better at controlling games and genuinely dominating matches (not flicking wins with Park the bus tactics) in Europe then I’ll take it.
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pieol
24 Nov 2017, 01:24 PM
BardseyCelt
24 Nov 2017, 01:19 PM
dazabhoy67
24 Nov 2017, 01:17 PM

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Was just about to post similar. Incidentally the whole 'worst European result in our history' being 1-0 against Red Imps in a game we went on to win comfortably is bollocks. Losing 5-0 away to Bratislava when we had a 4 goal lead is the worst European result.

Liked commons as a player but the guy doesn't have two brain cells to rub together.
Bratislava results were other way about . Whatever they are Red Imps aren't a pub team. Hyperbolic shampoo from Commons.
The red imps are effing shampooe, Bratislava were a better team but still shampooe, but the result against Bratislava was harder to take.
What commons wrote was a pile of shampooe too
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Love how Commons casually dismisses the Anderlecht result as a night when the Belgians were 'below par.'

It was a performance away from home from a Celtic team which I hadn't seen since Martin O'Neill's days. To lazily discard it is doing us a disservice.

Red Imps aside, I would argue that BR hasn't lost a game in Europe that I expected us to win. His team have also improved upon an absolutely horrendous CL away record by putting 5 points on the board in two seasons, beating the whole of the previous eight campaigns' efforts combined.

Yes, the home form is a worry, but losing to Barca, Monchengladbach, PSG and Bayern is hardly disastrous. The two wins against Astana and Be'er Sheva were two of the best European nights I've experienced in recent times, and I remember the stadium being euphoric at times in both.

Whereas Lennon, Strachan and O'Neill probably overachieved at time in Europe, BR is about par for the course. Some good highs and some pretty hard to take defeats. I'll trust him to continually improve us as he has been doing for 18 months, and only make a judgement on the success or failure of this season's exploits after we've been knocked out of Europe officially.
Edited by san meegs, 24 Nov 2017, 02:36 PM.
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LambertandButler
24 Nov 2017, 09:52 AM
mick82
24 Nov 2017, 08:45 AM
lepetitmerde
24 Nov 2017, 08:31 AM

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And therein lies the issue.

Inaccurate shorter passing out from the back will concede possession and the opposition will come straight back at you.

Hoofing it up the park will concede possession and the opposition will come straight back at you.

I can understand why the manager is tying to make us better at the former. Some folk want us to abandon that which strikes me as saying 'We're not very good at keeping possession so why try to?'
But the poster here is making the point that it's far more damaging against these teams to concede possession in your own half.

How many of the goals we've conceded over the two games came from occasions where we've misplaced a pass or made an error in our own half?
Is it that more dangerous tho?

Unless Dembele is going to get in the end of a hoofed ball, control it, get away from his marker and advance on goal and score then all that is going to happen is that the opposition will collect the ball and advance unencumbered back into our half with possession of the ball anyway.

Look at the first goal conceded on Wed. Brown loses possession by playing a pass intended for Ntcham who was just inside our half. We were hardly exposed or left completely wide open. We had enough men back to defend. The players just couldn't cope with the quality of passing, movement, control and finishing of PSG.

You can say it wouldn't have happened if Brown had hit a long ball over the top but the reality is that PSG players would have picked it up again and come at us anyway. Given the way we've defended in CL this season, is there anyone confident that the players would be able to sit in and successfully hold off players with the quality of PSG?

For me, the issue isn't about attacking or defensive positions or even short or long passing. It's about possession. If we can't get and retain it then we will lose and lose heavily if the opposition is up to the task. If we have possession of the ball for sustained periods then are in a much better position. Personally, I think it's easier to retain possession by playing shorter, simpler passes to nearby teammates but that only works if you do the simole things well.
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mick82
24 Nov 2017, 08:45 AM
lepetitmerde
24 Nov 2017, 08:31 AM
Dannybhoy95
23 Nov 2017, 10:47 PM

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I wish we would hoof it up the park instead of giving teams throw ins 30 yards from our goal after Gordon aimlesses punts another ball over tierneys head
And therein lies the issue.

Inaccurate shorter passing out from the back will concede possession and the opposition will come straight back at you.

Hoofing it up the park will concede possession and the opposition will come straight back at you.

I can understand why the manager is tying to make us better at the former. Some folk want us to abandon that which strikes me as saying 'We're not very good at keeping possession so why try to?'
No problem with the manager trying to make us better at passing out from the back - when we're facing opposition who're rarely capable of exploiting the weakest part of our team and game.

The only excuse I can think of for persisting with that tactic against a team many expect to win this year's CL: Perhaps BR hopes that in 2 or 3 seasons, we'll be mentally & physically good enough at this level to carry it out, consistently, under pressure, against the top teams?

Otherwise, it's just deliberately harming our current team and potential for the future.

OTOH, 'hoofing the ball up the park' rarely works unless you have at least two fast, strong, technically good forwards who can reliably compete with the opposition defence for the ball & make it stick long enough to get your midfield and defence up the pitch in support. Not sure if Dembele & Griffiths are or could be that combination - pretty clear from the other night that Dembele & Rogic aren't.
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