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Brendan Rodgers; "I was born into Celtic"
Topic Started: 20 May 2016, 05:06 PM (2,287,934 Views)
Kingslim
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Muzz
19 Oct 2017, 10:33 AM
Kingslim
19 Oct 2017, 10:31 AM
idyllwild
19 Oct 2017, 10:22 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepincrease experience of playing in these games
Too many people mistaking being properly organised and assuming it means hoofing it aimlessly up the park. That’s not what people are saying- you can be organised and controlled.

Very few teams in Europe can be organised and controlled against Bayern Munich.

We certainly aren't achieving that with Gordon, Gamboa, Lustig, Boyata and Tierney.
I’m not talking about last night - I mean in general.
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Muzz
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Kingslim
19 Oct 2017, 10:37 AM
Muzz
19 Oct 2017, 10:33 AM
Kingslim
19 Oct 2017, 10:31 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepincrease experience of playing in these games
Very few teams in Europe can be organised and controlled against Bayern Munich.

We certainly aren't achieving that with Gordon, Gamboa, Lustig, Boyata and Tierney.
I’m not talking about last night - I mean in general.
Fair enough but the point still stands. We don't have the players to compete at the elite level consistently and mistakes will be made.
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Flawless
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Kingslim
19 Oct 2017, 10:37 AM
Flawless
19 Oct 2017, 10:29 AM
Kingslim
19 Oct 2017, 10:05 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
So we just stop? Go back to Strachan and Lennon when the players couldn't string 4 passes together?

We can't have it every way, the expansive football which gets us victories in Anderlecht and leads to Domestic dominance can't just be switched off for a defensive line-up. This isn't american football.

Of course not, but you know your limitations when playing the big boys. You don’t go to places like Munich playing expansive with two wingers knowing you’re going to be on the back foot for most of the game whilst relying on attacking players to do a defensive job.

I’m just using last night as an example not having a go at the manager or the players. I’m delighted we are on course for third.

I just think he needs to be able to adapt when need be. No shame in that
We played more negatively than usual by putting Armstrong in the middle instead of Rogic . The wingers are always going to play because you need someone with a bit of individual magic, those two are our best bet especially if you've forgone Rogic in the centre. Indeed Roberts, Sinclair where the only two who looked capable of beating a player.

We had 8 defensive players last night. And the wingers - depsite various protestations on here - were doubling back. What else do you want? 5 at the back, 5 in the middle? Two goalies?

We don't have the players to adapt.

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tinsoldier
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We gave the ball back to the opposition far too easily last night.

That's nothing to do with tactics or learning curves or pragmatism or hung-ho naivety.

Nerves maybe, fear probably. Perhaps we do it as often domestically but get it back again more often than not.
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van Doesburg
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idyllwild
19 Oct 2017, 10:22 AM
stevie21
19 Oct 2017, 10:17 AM
Flawless
19 Oct 2017, 09:44 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepincrease experience of playing in these games it will come with time.

I'm sorry there's no quick fix in modern football now. Ramming 11 at the back and hoping your goalie has one of those nights isn't any better. We will still get beat.

I think that's exactly it. If it's hammered into you that your first instinct is to keep your head up and look for a pass and not just hoof the ball up the park, then at some point you'll think "I managed it against Bayern Munich, so I'll definitely be doing it against Anderlecht". You might get pumped off Bayern and PSG but the manager is instilling the right way for individual players to approach the game. If we'd have packed the defence and blootered the ball up the park constantly, we might have lost 2-0 but you learn nothing doing that so I'd rather see the players at least try to retain possession and try to probe for openings.
That explains it perfectly too. It's a learning curve. :thumbsup:
Agreed. And that's pretty much exactly what BR said himself in his press conference last night.

"For this group, it's about constructing a mindset and a way of working. It's not going to happen overnight. It's constant experience but there was enough in the game for me to see the players are improving and it's something we're developing over the coming years hopefully."

In this article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41674769
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Jinkys 7
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I thought we actually defended well last night. I thought Tierney, Boyata and Lustig were all competent at worst. We defended poorly for the goals (3rd especially) but that's individual errors.

We got beat by a team that are, financially and in football terms, years ahead of us. I'd have taken 3-0 before kick-off and after the 52nd minute so I'm not disappointed. We also finished the game strongly and could have easily scored ourselves.

Playing Bayern and PSG were always going to be free games for us because nobody realistically expected us to get anything from those games. Our big games in this group were always going to be against Anderlecht. We beat them away convincingly which puts us in a good place for potential European football after Christmas. That's progression.
Edited by Jinkys 7, 19 Oct 2017, 10:57 AM.
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puroresu_boy
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tinsoldier
19 Oct 2017, 10:44 AM
We gave the ball back to the opposition far too easily last night.

That's nothing to do with tactics or learning curves or pragmatism or hung-ho naivety.

Nerves maybe, fear probably. Perhaps we do it as often domestically but get it back again more often than not.
Don't think we do it as often its just when we do we are not punished like we are against the elite.

Even in Anderlecht when we gave it away we could still hang in the game simply because Anderlecht are not as good.

Its difficult for the players we have to make the step up and deal with such intensity, such pressure as last night when they don't face that kind of intensity anywhere near regular enough.
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idyllwild


tinsoldier
19 Oct 2017, 10:44 AM
We gave the ball back to the opposition far too easily last night.

That's nothing to do with tactics or learning curves or pragmatism or hung-ho naivety.

Nerves maybe, fear probably. Perhaps we do it as often domestically but get it back again more often than not.
It's absolutely about a learning curve. You want the players to keep doing their thing in every game so that they learn not to be so nervous or fearful.

As Stevie says, you learn that it works in one situation therefore it can work in another, and you can keep the ball with a bit more confidence because you know it can work.
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Kingslim
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Flawless
19 Oct 2017, 10:41 AM
Kingslim
19 Oct 2017, 10:37 AM
Flawless
19 Oct 2017, 10:29 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Of course not, but you know your limitations when playing the big boys. You don’t go to places like Munich playing expansive with two wingers knowing you’re going to be on the back foot for most of the game whilst relying on attacking players to do a defensive job.

I’m just using last night as an example not having a go at the manager or the players. I’m delighted we are on course for third.

I just think he needs to be able to adapt when need be. No shame in that
We played more negatively than usual by putting Armstrong in the middle instead of Rogic . The wingers are always going to play because you need someone with a bit of individual magic, those two are our best bet especially if you've forgone Rogic in the centre. Indeed Roberts, Sinclair where the only two who looked capable of beating a player.

We had 8 defensive players last night. And the wingers - depsite various protestations on here - were doubling back. What else do you want? 5 at the back, 5 in the middle? Two goalies?

We don't have the players to adapt.

The flip side of that is you have Sinclair failing to stop the cross at the 1st goal. He stood so far off the winger he had all time in the world to float it in. He got two goes at it before Lewandowski got his header in. Gamboa and KT were at fault too but again it goes back to my point of expecting forward thinking players doing a defensive job.

We didn’t sit in naturally, we were forced back as expected. We could sacrifice a winger, bring in another cm player and play someone like Armstrong out side to help the full back.

Just an example not saying we should drop Sinclair
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fatboab
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Just before the Dawn

I think we were trying to nullify Robben's influence by switching Boyata and Tierney, but it only seemed to cause us uncertainty, and left that side wide open. I guess the idea was to have the right footed Boyata up against Robben's preferred "cut back inside" routine. Whatever it was, it was a feckin' mess.
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Luca
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I actually think BR is more concerned with us playing the way he wants us to and learning to do so at this level, rather than attempting to get any kind of result using park-the-bus tactics.

He pretty much said as much before the PSG game. I guess it's his prerogative as manager to consider development of our regular game at that level more important than playing a whole new system in the slim chance we get 3 points.

It's nice to see he's thinking long term, but it can be painful to watch during this learning process. :lol:
Edited by Luca, 19 Oct 2017, 11:14 AM.
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moravcik67
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idyllwild
19 Oct 2017, 08:58 AM
moravcik67
19 Oct 2017, 08:35 AM
Absolutely nothing wrong with criticising BR if he gets it wrong - if it's done in an objective manner that takes into account the context of our place in the grand scheme of footballing things. It would have taken something extraordinary to get something from the game last night, regardless of how we setup, what players we had available or how much we had spent in the summer. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be making them earn the win and work for their goals. We didn't do much of that last night. That was the real disappointment.

Would I like us to be a bit more pragmatic about these games, a bit more compact and difficult to break down? Yeh, of course. But it's difficult to get players to play in that manner when it's only required a handful of times a season. And all the pragmatism and tactics in the world won't make the slightest difference when our players are losing their composure as soon as some sustained pressure is applied. That's the real problem we need to solve. Until we do we're on to a hiding from these teams every time we step on the park.
If Griffiths had the composure of Lewandowski he'd be as good as him. That's the obvious comparison, but it applies right throughout the squads. The lacking of composure is the main reason why we're not as good as them.

I'm not sure that's something that can be fixed by a manager. It's not as apparent as the ability to kick a ball, but it is part of the measure of a player's ability.

If we want better footballers who can compete with Bayern, we're going to need to sign/rear them. And if we want players with more composure against Bayern, we're going to need to sign/rear them too. I don't think you can train Lustig or Gamboa to concentrate for 90 minutes, and I don't honk you can train Griffiths not to get carried away when he has a chance. At this stage, they either have it or they don't. And if they had it at that level, they wouldn't still be playing for us.

It's why we get guys like Wanyama or Dembele for a couple of years at the start of their career. That's the only opportunity we have of getting players with both the ability and the composure.
No argument with that. Composure is a huge part of a successful player's makeup, whether it's a striker being through one on one, a midfielder getting the ball in a tight position, or a defender playing backs to the wall and resisting the instinct to just punt the ball anywhere.

I think it can be developed to an extent. The problem is that it's something that can quickly spread throughout a team from back to front. It's difficult keeping composure when the other 10 players are all over the shop.
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Flawless
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Kingslim
19 Oct 2017, 11:03 AM
Flawless
19 Oct 2017, 10:41 AM
Kingslim
19 Oct 2017, 10:37 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
We played more negatively than usual by putting Armstrong in the middle instead of Rogic . The wingers are always going to play because you need someone with a bit of individual magic, those two are our best bet especially if you've forgone Rogic in the centre. Indeed Roberts, Sinclair where the only two who looked capable of beating a player.

We had 8 defensive players last night. And the wingers - depsite various protestations on here - were doubling back. What else do you want? 5 at the back, 5 in the middle? Two goalies?

We don't have the players to adapt.

The flip side of that is you have Sinclair failing to stop the cross at the 1st goal. He stood so far off the winger he had all time in the world to float it in. He got two goes at it before Lewandowski got his header in. Gamboa and KT were at fault too but again it goes back to my point of expecting forward thinking players doing a defensive job.

We didn’t sit in naturally, we were forced back as expected. We could sacrifice a winger, bring in another cm player and play someone like Armstrong out side to help the full back.

Just an example not saying we should drop Sinclair
But then playing 9 defensive players doesn't negate their abilities going forward. And once we get the ball we have no outlet.

Considering the options available I thought Brendan picked the right team, a bit more pragmatic than usual, with a semblance of threat.


Our right back got roasted by an incredibly good player, they also had two of the best forwards in the world playing. Arjen Robben and a quite mercurial Thiago. I keep saying it. Arsenal with Alexis Sanchez, Mesut Ozil, Koscielny et al went to the Allianz got 26% percent of the ball and got throbbed 5-1 6 months ago.

They're practically unbeatable at home in Europe. I think only Man City ( in a dead rubber) Barcelona and Real Madrid have beat them in about 5 year.

Our CL campaign is based on our head to head against Anderlecht, collecting the big money, and getting to enjoy seeing some of the best players in the world at Celtic Park.


Then go into the EUropa League where we are - or should be - a much more dangerous proposition.



Edited by Flawless, 19 Oct 2017, 11:28 AM.
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Kingslim
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Flawless
19 Oct 2017, 11:27 AM
Kingslim
19 Oct 2017, 11:03 AM
Flawless
19 Oct 2017, 10:41 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The flip side of that is you have Sinclair failing to stop the cross at the 1st goal. He stood so far off the winger he had all time in the world to float it in. He got two goes at it before Lewandowski got his header in. Gamboa and KT were at fault too but again it goes back to my point of expecting forward thinking players doing a defensive job.

We didn’t sit in naturally, we were forced back as expected. We could sacrifice a winger, bring in another cm player and play someone like Armstrong out side to help the full back.

Just an example not saying we should drop Sinclair
But then playing 9 defensive players doesn't negate their abilities going forward. And once we get the ball we have no outlet.

Considering the options available I thought Brendan picked the right team, a bit more pragmatic than usual, with a semblance of threat.


Our right back got roasted by an incredibly good player, they also had two of the best forwards in the world playing. Arjen Robben and a quite mercurial Thiago. I keep saying it. Arsenal with Alexis Sanchez, Mesut Ozil, Koscielny et al went to the Allianz got 26% percent of the ball and got throbbed 5-1 6 months ago.

They're practically unbeatable at home in Europe. I think only Man City ( in a dead rubber) Barcelona and Real Madrid have beat them in about 5 year.

Our CL campaign is based on our head to head against Anderlecht, collecting the big money, and getting to enjoy seeing some of the best players in the world at Celtic Park.


Then go into the EUropa League where we are - or should be - a much more dangerous proposition.



Totally agree.

I’m looking forward to the EL - really believe we can do something in that competition.
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IainG
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idyllwild
18 Oct 2017, 10:43 PM
ronny_is_not_da_man
18 Oct 2017, 10:39 PM
idyllwild
18 Oct 2017, 10:35 PM

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Fair enough but his way wont work in anyway at all against the big teams and has yet to work.

If he keeps the same up we are gonna get beating after beating.
2 draws against City and a 3-0 win away to Anderlecht.

His tactics will work occasionally, unless you're talking only about PSG, Barca, Bayern. And I hate to break it to you, but they'll hump us no matter what BR does.
Exactly. You cannot draw any conclusions at all in games against these kind of clubs.
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titch
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Effin hell im going to have to hand back my most negative poster award.

I thought we worked hard - did well at times and for the want of a fit and full in flow squad i think we could have done better.

We tried to play the way Rodgers wants us to play as much as we could and at times albeit not many we were brave on the ball.

Sure tactically we could have sat in and defended and maybe lost by less/the same/more bit ive no issues with is trying to play the way Rodgers believes is the correct way to play - mauling or not and tbh compared to the first game i dont think we were that bad(at times)
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Dannybhoy95
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Flawless
19 Oct 2017, 09:44 AM
Just exactly what Brendans trying to do over time.

If you increase the quality of player and increase experience of playing in these games it will come with time.

I'm sorry there's no quick fix in modern football now. Ramming 11 at the back and hoping your goalie has one of those nights isn't any better. We will still get beat.
That's smashing assuming everyone stays. They won't. They never do.

Lustig is on his last legs, Armstrong will likely be off soon, Paddy is gone in the summer. Jozo is unreliable. Who knows when Dembele will leave. Brown is 32.

We're in a constant state of rebuilding and then plugging gaps because we don't bother with the right positions because "X player will do a job against Kilmarnock."

I'm not asking for a quick fix, I just want the team to do the basics and at least look semi-competent when we play a team that's better than us.
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Flawless
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Dannybhoy95
19 Oct 2017, 11:52 AM
That's smashing assuming everyone stays. They won't. They never do.

Lustig is on his last legs, Armstrong will likely be off soon, Paddy is gone in the summer. Jozo is unreliable. Who knows when Dembele will leave. Brown is 32.

We're in a constant state of rebuilding and then plugging gaps because we don't bother with the right positions because "X player will do a job against Kilmarnock."

I'm not asking for a quick fix, I just want the team to do the basics and at least look semi-competent when we play a team that's better than us.
And how does any of the above change by ramming 11 guys at the back and getting beat 1/2-0.

You're trying to breed a philosophy and trying to upgrade on the players leaving. The game has changed. Playing super teams like Bayern Munich with 10 World Class players in their squad isn't a true reflection on Celtic. Nor is the billion pound PSG outfit. These teams make smaller teams look rotten. PSG beat Bayern 2 weeks ago by the same score as Bayern beat us last night.

It's worth remembering it and adjusting expectations. Celtic's place in Europe is now. Lower level CL participants , getting a skelping whether we like it or not.

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pieol
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tinsoldier
19 Oct 2017, 10:44 AM
We gave the ball back to the opposition far too easily last night.

That's nothing to do with tactics or learning curves or pragmatism or hung-ho naivety.

Nerves maybe, fear probably. Perhaps we do it as often domestically but get it back again more often than not.
It didn't happen a lot but Rogic and Dembele made a difference with their ability to control the ball and turn when they came on. That was the difference between the ball coming straight back at us and us actually having an attack. Must be encouraging for a defensive player if he knows his pass is going to stick. Granted Bayern had eased off but we just weren't capable of that in the first half. We actually had a good percentage of possession, unfortunately it was in our own last third of the pitch.
Edited by pieol, 19 Oct 2017, 12:15 PM.
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Dannybhoy95
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Flawless
19 Oct 2017, 12:07 PM
And how does any of the above change by ramming 11 guys at the back and getting beat 1/2-0.
It doesn't. Nor am I asking it to.

I fully accept that we're fodder. I know we'll get beat. I just ask us to at least make teams work for their goals.
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