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Brendan Rodgers; "I was born into Celtic"
Topic Started: 20 May 2016, 05:06 PM (2,288,255 Views)
Novelty_Bauble
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Joe the Baker
14 Sep 2016, 07:32 AM
Gamboa starting was a strange decision.
Wasn't that strange once the decision had been made to play 5 at the back.

Most folk on here agreed a back 5 was the right way to go. It helped us see out the Hapoel away game. Totally different level to deal with last night of course.

Rodgers has done an excellent job even getting us here. Like the players, he needs time to learn at this level.
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exiledinstonehaventim
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I think this can be said. If he had a chance to again he would line up differently.

He wanted to play with wing backs to at least have some sort of attacking option. He should have set up how Lennon has set up against them before 4-1-4-1, crowded out the middle of the pitch and defended for our lives. In Roberts, Sinclair, Dembele we had three players that can't really play defensively and that was an error.

It also showed that missing out on a quality centre mid in the transfer window was a big thing.

I should say none of this would have meant we could have really competed in the game. Could have kept it to a few though.

He'll learn and the players will learn. Gamboa for the first and O'Connell for the fifth (?) will have learned for one thing that top quality players don't get caught offside and you have to track their runs.
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allthewine
13 Sep 2016, 09:58 PM
I am not sure what people were expecting. We competed in the first half and missed a penalty. In the second half they brought on fecking Iniesta and scored some excellent goals.

We were playing the best team in the World. 9 times out of 10 they are going to pump us.
correct
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Lennon didn't play 4-1-4-1 against them, first 2 games it was 4-4-1-1 and you could have drawn a straight line through our MF, very disciplined performances. Everyone kept their positions and tracked their runners when they attacked. Last night the defence got in a line of 5 and let people run off them, behind them and looked clueless.

I'm not putting all the blame on the manager, no matter how he set them up, some of the defending was amateurish. Loads of bodies but no one marking or going to the ball. Really, really bad no matter how good Barca are. We're miles off competing for 3rd but it was always going to take at least 2 seasons back in the CL to get the experience and money required to compete.
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He got it wrong last night by not putting more bodies in the midfield, but he's just in the door and the squad still needs some rebuilding.

I think I'm right in saying that by this stage in each of O'Neill's, Strachan's and Lennon's first seasons we were already out of Europe altogether. And obviously no other Celtic manager has qualified for the Champions League group stages in his first season. So, he's ahead of schedule and I think this season should be viewed as a learning experience for Brendan and for those players he will build his Celtic team around.

Managing Celtic in Europe is a learning curve. Eking our results in Europe with a squad which costs £15 million against squads which cost ten or twenty times that (and more) is something Strachan and Lennon had to learn to do. And they did learn to do it, for the most part. The financial disparity is growing - and it has certainly grown massively since O'Neill's time - which is all the more reason why qualifying this year was so important.

I actually don't think we're a million miles away from being a team which could compete at this level and potentially qualify for the last 16 (if we don't get a horror show of a draw like this year). We need a better defensive shape - that will come. And we need a Boruc/Forster and a Wanyama.
Edited by Midfield Maestro, 14 Sep 2016, 09:38 AM.
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14 Sep 2016, 09:28 AM
He got it wrong last night by not putting more bodies in the midfield, but he's just in the door and the squad still needs some rebuilding.

I think I'm right in saying that by this stage in each of O'Neill's, Strachan's and Lennon's first seasons we were already out of Europe altogether. And obviously no other Celtic manager has qualified for the Champions League group stages in his first season. So, he's ahead of schedule and I think this season should be viewed as a learning experience for Brendan and for those players he will build his Celtic team around.

Managing Celtic in Europe is a learning curve. Eking our results in Europe with a squad which costs £15 million against squads which cost ten or twenty times that (and more) is something Strachan and Lennon had to learn to do. And they did learn to do it, for the most part. The financial disparity is growing - and it has certainly grown massively since O'Neill's time - which is all the more reason why qualifying this year was so important.
I think going by his comments before the game, he did get it wrong. I feared the worse when he spoke about the players not having time to practice the formation. I think we would have been better going with a back four with five in midfield.
Regardless, I still think we would have got beaten.
The concern I have is that when we look at other games out with last night, we are still poor defensively. I know a lot of the Liverpool fans pointed out that this is how it would be with Brendan, but I really hope he learns for this as I'd hate to be on the receiving end of similar pumpings in the CL this season.
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He said before the game that teams played 4 at the back against Barcelona, so he did not think they would be used to playing against 5. I think he just found out why other teams don't play 5 at the back now.

Definitely made mistakes last night, but hopefully he'll learn.
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horatiogreen
14 Sep 2016, 09:49 AM
He said before the game that teams played 4 at the back against Barcelona, so he did not think they would be used to playing against 5. I think he just found out why other teams don't play 5 at the back now.

Definitely made mistakes last night, but hopefully he'll learn.
I think playing 5 at the back would have been fine if he'd played a narrow 3 or 4 in midfield.

5 at the back with 2 central midfielders and 2 wingers who aren't really used to defending is a whole nother kettle of fish.
Edited by Midfield Maestro, 14 Sep 2016, 09:56 AM.
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stibhan
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To be fair pretty much every single manager since Jock Stein has failed to do well in Europe in their first season. That shouldn't usually mean anything but in our case it shows that we have previous with adjusting to a European campaign. This is all about experience and funds for Brendan, so we're just going to have to take these on the chin in the next few months and then hope we reap the benefits in a year's time.
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Novelty_Bauble
14 Sep 2016, 08:52 AM
Joe the Baker
14 Sep 2016, 07:32 AM
Gamboa starting was a strange decision.
Wasn't that strange once the decision had been made to play 5 at the back.

Most folk on here agreed a back 5 was the right way to go. It helped us see out the Hapoel away game. Totally different level to deal with last night of course.

Rodgers has done an excellent job even getting us here. Like the players, he needs time to learn at this level.
The 5 at the back scenario is a result of not having 4 reasonable midfield options that would enable you to set up 2 banks of 4 in an effort to combat a team like Barca i.e. Celtic needed 4 midfield players willing and able to exhibit a defensive mentality when required.

However we don't, despite the plethora of midfielders stockpiled over the years, have players capable of this. The teams we play in the SPFL dictated we could do without such players but the rigours of European competition suggests we need them now.

As with the Imps setback, Brendan now has the evidence to present to the powers that be that quality players are required in the engine room of the team. This requirement was allowed to pass during the last window. It had better not come January.
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Midfield Maestro
14 Sep 2016, 09:28 AM
He got it wrong last night by not putting more bodies in the midfield, but he's just in the door and the squad still needs some rebuilding.

I think I'm right in saying that by this stage in each of O'Neill's, Strachan's and Lennon's first seasons we were already out of Europe altogether. And obviously no other Celtic manager has qualified for the Champions League group stages in his first season. So, he's ahead of schedule and I think this season should be viewed as a learning experience for Brendan and for those players he will build his Celtic team around.

Managing Celtic in Europe is a learning curve. Eking our results in Europe with a squad which costs £15 million against squads which cost ten or twenty times that (and more) is something Strachan and Lennon had to learn to do. And they did learn to do it, for the most part. The financial disparity is growing - and it has certainly grown massively since O'Neill's time - which is all the more reason why qualifying this year was so important.

I actually don't think we're a million miles away from being a team which could compete at this level and potentially qualify for the last 16 (if we don't get a horror show of a draw like this year). We need a better defensive shape - that will come. And we need a Boruc/Forster and a Wanyama.
I agree with almost all of your post, the only point I'd contest is that we are not a million miles away from being a team which could compete at this level.

We have a long long way to go if we are to reach the last 16, and without a heavy investment in real quality, we will continue to be just a middle order European team, delighted to be in the group stages for the cash windfall that brings.



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Lobey Dosser
14 Sep 2016, 10:02 AM
Midfield Maestro
14 Sep 2016, 09:28 AM
He got it wrong last night by not putting more bodies in the midfield, but he's just in the door and the squad still needs some rebuilding.

I think I'm right in saying that by this stage in each of O'Neill's, Strachan's and Lennon's first seasons we were already out of Europe altogether. And obviously no other Celtic manager has qualified for the Champions League group stages in his first season. So, he's ahead of schedule and I think this season should be viewed as a learning experience for Brendan and for those players he will build his Celtic team around.

Managing Celtic in Europe is a learning curve. Eking our results in Europe with a squad which costs £15 million against squads which cost ten or twenty times that (and more) is something Strachan and Lennon had to learn to do. And they did learn to do it, for the most part. The financial disparity is growing - and it has certainly grown massively since O'Neill's time - which is all the more reason why qualifying this year was so important.

I actually don't think we're a million miles away from being a team which could compete at this level and potentially qualify for the last 16 (if we don't get a horror show of a draw like this year). We need a better defensive shape - that will come. And we need a Boruc/Forster and a Wanyama.
I agree with almost all of your post, the only point I'd contest is that we are not a million miles away from being a team which could compete at this level.

We have a long long way to go if we are to reach the last 16, and without a heavy investment in real quality, we will continue to be just a middle order European team, delighted to be in the group stages for the cash windfall that brings.



We do have a long way to go in terms of our discipline and shape. But I think we are only 2/3 players away from having a squad which can compete.
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Mackin
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Midfield Maestro
14 Sep 2016, 09:28 AM
He got it wrong last night by not putting more bodies in the midfield, but he's just in the door and the squad still needs some rebuilding.

I think I'm right in saying that by this stage in each of O'Neill's, Strachan's and Lennon's first seasons we were already out of Europe altogether. And obviously no other Celtic manager has qualified for the Champions League group stages in his first season. So, he's ahead of schedule and I think this season should be viewed as a learning experience for Brendan and for those players he will build his Celtic team around.

Managing Celtic in Europe is a learning curve. Eking our results in Europe with a squad which costs £15 million against squads which cost ten or twenty times that (and more) is something Strachan and Lennon had to learn to do. And they did learn to do it, for the most part. The financial disparity is growing - and it has certainly grown massively since O'Neill's time - which is all the more reason why qualifying this year was so important.

I actually don't think we're a million miles away from being a team which could compete at this level and potentially qualify for the last 16 (if we don't get a horror show of a draw like this year). We need a better defensive shape - that will come. And we need a Boruc/Forster and a Wanyama.
The problem is we dont have the bodies to put in midfield, its why lots of us were disappointed despite a pretty good transfer window.

Lennon went to the Nou Camp in 2012 with Brown, Wanyama, Ledley, Mulgrew and Samaras in midfield and we held them until the 94th minute. We just dont have the numbers to stifle the midfield the way we need to. Armstrong, Rogic or McGregor wouldnt have offered any more protection to the defense. I agree we're not a million miles away, but we could be in for another couple of heavy away defeats this season until we can get the midfielder(s) we need.
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14 Sep 2016, 09:55 AM
horatiogreen
14 Sep 2016, 09:49 AM
He said before the game that teams played 4 at the back against Barcelona, so he did not think they would be used to playing against 5. I think he just found out why other teams don't play 5 at the back now.

Definitely made mistakes last night, but hopefully he'll learn.
I think playing 5 at the back would have been fine if he'd played a narrow 3 or 4 in midfield.

5 at the back with 2 central midfielders and 2 wingers who aren't really used to defending is a whole nother kettle of fish.
Sinclair and Roberts did play narrow. Not their natural positions but I don't blame the tactics or selection. My main worry was that not having someone sit on Busquets would hurt us but it didn't really. Messi and Neymar were really in the mood and we couldn't cope with them or Suarez and the fullbacks' movement.
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don't think a five was the way to go, and that's not being wise after the event.
problem is we don't have the midfield to sit in front of a defence and maintain shape so I can see why he did it.

for a lot of the game it looked like we were back to Ronny and his 11 individuals rather than defending as a unit

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Mackin
14 Sep 2016, 10:23 AM
Midfield Maestro
14 Sep 2016, 09:28 AM
He got it wrong last night by not putting more bodies in the midfield, but he's just in the door and the squad still needs some rebuilding.

I think I'm right in saying that by this stage in each of O'Neill's, Strachan's and Lennon's first seasons we were already out of Europe altogether. And obviously no other Celtic manager has qualified for the Champions League group stages in his first season. So, he's ahead of schedule and I think this season should be viewed as a learning experience for Brendan and for those players he will build his Celtic team around.

Managing Celtic in Europe is a learning curve. Eking our results in Europe with a squad which costs £15 million against squads which cost ten or twenty times that (and more) is something Strachan and Lennon had to learn to do. And they did learn to do it, for the most part. The financial disparity is growing - and it has certainly grown massively since O'Neill's time - which is all the more reason why qualifying this year was so important.

I actually don't think we're a million miles away from being a team which could compete at this level and potentially qualify for the last 16 (if we don't get a horror show of a draw like this year). We need a better defensive shape - that will come. And we need a Boruc/Forster and a Wanyama.
The problem is we dont have the bodies to put in midfield, its why lots of us were disappointed despite a pretty good transfer window.

Lennon went to the Nou Camp in 2012 with Brown, Wanyama, Ledley, Mulgrew and Samaras in midfield and we held them until the 94th minute. We just dont have the numbers to stifle the midfield the way we need to. Armstrong, Rogic or McGregor wouldnt have offered any more protection to the defense. I agree we're not a million miles away, but we could be in for another couple of heavy away defeats this season until we can get the midfielder(s) we need.
Agree we don't really have the bodies, but I do think McGregor playing on the left of a narrow three (probably in place of Roberts) would have been the way to go. It probably wouldn't have stemmed the tide much, but I do think setting up with only two central midfielders was never going to work.
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esme stuart
14 Sep 2016, 09:59 AM
Novelty_Bauble
14 Sep 2016, 08:52 AM
Joe the Baker
14 Sep 2016, 07:32 AM
Gamboa starting was a strange decision.
Wasn't that strange once the decision had been made to play 5 at the back.

Most folk on here agreed a back 5 was the right way to go. It helped us see out the Hapoel away game. Totally different level to deal with last night of course.

Rodgers has done an excellent job even getting us here. Like the players, he needs time to learn at this level.
The 5 at the back scenario is a result of not having 4 reasonable midfield options that would enable you to set up 2 banks of 4 in an effort to combat a team like Barca i.e. Celtic needed 4 midfield players willing and able to exhibit a defensive mentality when required.

However we don't, despite the plethora of midfielders stockpiled over the years, have players capable of this. The teams we play in the SPFL dictated we could do without such players but the rigours of European competition suggests we need them now.

As with the Imps setback, Brendan now has the evidence to present to the powers that be that quality players are required in the engine room of the team. This requirement was allowed to pass during the last window. It had better not come January.
----Bitton

Forrest-Brown-Armstrong-Sinclair

There's 5 MF's for you and Rogic and Roberts on the bench. We had 6 MF's available that are in good to very good form.
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14 Sep 2016, 10:34 AM
esme stuart
14 Sep 2016, 09:59 AM
Novelty_Bauble
14 Sep 2016, 08:52 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The 5 at the back scenario is a result of not having 4 reasonable midfield options that would enable you to set up 2 banks of 4 in an effort to combat a team like Barca i.e. Celtic needed 4 midfield players willing and able to exhibit a defensive mentality when required.

However we don't, despite the plethora of midfielders stockpiled over the years, have players capable of this. The teams we play in the SPFL dictated we could do without such players but the rigours of European competition suggests we need them now.

As with the Imps setback, Brendan now has the evidence to present to the powers that be that quality players are required in the engine room of the team. This requirement was allowed to pass during the last window. It had better not come January.
----Bitton

Forrest-Brown-Armstrong-Sinclair

There's 5 MF's for you and Rogic and Roberts on the bench. We had 6 MF's available that are in good to very good form.
All these are more comfortable going forwards, though.

We need a couple of bodies that will offer more protection to the defence in games like last night's.
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None of those midfielders have any real defensive nous, there`s no Wanyama or even a Ledley in there who did the basic screening spadework. We quite simply don`t have the personnel in midfield to play a natural defensive game.

The only option I can see in the squad for parking the bus is to put one of the CB`s at midfield ( I know it`s much bemoaned on here and I was never a fan of of Caldwell, Mulgrew etc doing it) The only one capable of stepping in there with his reading of the game and short passing is Toure.
Do you take him out of the backline? would Boyata or Simunovic coming back from long term injuries be of any use in that role that if Toure then stepped forward?

I honestly don`t see how he can defensively improve that midfield with the squad we have, it`s a glaring hole and has been for a few seasons. I`ve seen absolutely no evidence in the past 2 seasons that Mcgregor or Armstrong or Rogic are any better at tracking runners or tackling than those he played last night...Forrest maybe better than Roberts at it but we`re talking small margins there.

He could possibly set us up to lose less goals against them at home, that`s about it. We`ll have more energy and no 30 odd degree heat to contend with, in fact I hope it`s snowing on the 23rd November!
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van Doesburg
14 Sep 2016, 10:42 AM
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14 Sep 2016, 10:34 AM
esme stuart
14 Sep 2016, 09:59 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
----Bitton

Forrest-Brown-Armstrong-Sinclair

There's 5 MF's for you and Rogic and Roberts on the bench. We had 6 MF's available that are in good to very good form.
All these are more comfortable going forwards, though.

We need a couple of bodies that will offer more protection to the defence in games like last night's.
Bitton isn't. They can all still defend, they wouldn't have much choice.

We do but meanwhile the MF I suggested would better than a back 5 imo.

A very tough lesson, I'm sure we'll learn from it.
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