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Stuart Armstrong; 'Fishel: Signs for Southampton on a 4 year deal.
Topic Started: 18 Oct 2015, 09:50 PM (730,990 Views)
Neil Jung
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Kingslim
10 Jun 2018, 10:32 AM
Neil Jung
10 Jun 2018, 09:59 AM
Pussyfoot
10 Jun 2018, 09:39 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Stuart Armstrong's stats at United will be comparable or better than those of McGinn at Hibs and St Mirren. It is worth noting Armstrong's appearances were in the top division. Also worth noting are Armstrong's performances in Brendan's first season in charge. You want to compare him to NtCham - fine. I love NtCham and think he has so much potential but I doubt the word most in our support would use to describe him is reliable. I watched him dominate in games v Sevco but get hooked at half time v Hearts and Hibs. God, I watched him have a dreadful first 20-30 minutes away at Anderlecht before playing one of the most beautiful passes of the season to help set up our first goal. Different players have different attributes and bring different things to the team. Armstrong is a strong runner. He can carry the ball distances and also arrive in the box. Nobody else in our squad is as good at it as him. IfArmstrong goes it won't be a massive loss but we will be losing the only player in our squad who offers what he offers. McGinn is nowhere near being as good at it as him. McGinn also isn't as good as NtCham at passing or Brown as an all round midfielder. Replacing Armstrong with McGinn is a bad move.

Your assessment of Ntcham is harsh. A lot of us were scratching our heads in the first season in games he either wasn’t starting or getting hooked early. It then comes to light, that Brendan didn’t think he was physically ready. He never deserved to be hooked at Tynecastle that day. He was howling in Anderlecht to begin with, but he recovered mentally and was probably our best player by the end of the game. There were some games during the season that if he’d been introduced earlier we probably would have won 0-0 Sevco and there was a home CL game he came on late as a sub - might have been Anderlecht at home. He’s was arguably our most important player in the big games last season. Even Astana away when others were crumbling he took the game by the scruff and scored the goal to ease he pressure.

He’s had his stinking days, like everyone, but most notably they have been at the likes of Kille and Hamilton on diabolical surfaces that players are probably more focused on not getting hurt. He had inconsistencies as you would expect from a 21 year but there’s no doubt Ntcham is reliable.

He may not have the running power of Armstrong who brings a different skillset but Ntcham is an absolute diamond of a player and I still can’t figure out how we managed to get him.
I love NtCham. In the match thread during his first game for us I predicted he'd be POTY because I was blown away by his skill set. I was wrong but often am. In that post I was being harsh, but also honest, to make a point. I don't believe NtCham has been reliable in the way Pussyfoot was using the word but I have no doubt he is an outstanding player who has the highest ceiling of all our midfielders.
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geezerbhoy
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Neil Jung
10 Jun 2018, 09:59 AM
Pussyfoot
10 Jun 2018, 09:39 AM
mick82
10 Jun 2018, 09:34 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
That's not my point, he was able to start those games. Armstrong hasn't managed it at United nor Celtic. N'tcham in his first full season looked a more reliable option.

I'd like to keep Armstrong but he's not been as reliable as others in that area of the field. The midfield is the rhythm of the side and the whole team benefits from consistency in that area, reliability.
Stuart Armstrong's stats at United will be comparable or better than those of McGinn at Hibs and St Mirren. It is worth noting Armstrong's appearances were in the top division. Also worth noting are Armstrong's performances in Brendan's first season in charge. You want to compare him to NtCham - fine. I love NtCham and think he has so much potential but I doubt the word most in our support would use to describe him is reliable. I watched him dominate in games v Sevco but get hooked at half time v Hearts and Hibs. God, I watched him have a dreadful first 20-30 minutes away at Anderlecht before playing one of the most beautiful passes of the season to help set up our first goal. Different players have different attributes and bring different things to the team. Armstrong is a strong runner. He can carry the ball distances and also arrive in the box. Nobody else in our squad is as good at it as him. IfArmstrong goes it won't be a massive loss but we will be losing the only player in our squad who offers what he offers. McGinn is nowhere near being as good at it as him. McGinn also isn't as good as NtCham at passing or Brown as an all round midfielder. Replacing Armstrong with McGinn is a bad move.

:thumbsup:
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Neil Jung
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Pussyfoot
10 Jun 2018, 10:11 AM
Neil Jung
10 Jun 2018, 09:59 AM
Pussyfoot
10 Jun 2018, 09:39 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Stuart Armstrong's stats at United will be comparable or better than those of McGinn at Hibs and St Mirren. It is worth noting Armstrong's appearances were in the top division. Also worth noting are Armstrong's performances in Brendan's first season in charge. You want to compare him to NtCham - fine. I love NtCham and think he has so much potential but I doubt the word most in our support would use to describe him is reliable. I watched him dominate in games v Sevco but get hooked at half time v Hearts and Hibs. God, I watched him have a dreadful first 20-30 minutes away at Anderlecht before playing one of the most beautiful passes of the season to help set up our first goal. Different players have different attributes and bring different things to the team. Armstrong is a strong runner. He can carry the ball distances and also arrive in the box. Nobody else in our squad is as good at it as him. IfArmstrong goes it won't be a massive loss but we will be losing the only player in our squad who offers what he offers. McGinn is nowhere near being as good at it as him. McGinn also isn't as good as NtCham at passing or Brown as an all round midfielder. Replacing Armstrong with McGinn is a bad move.

:thumbsup: Lots of good and interesting points, I'd need to see McGinn in action for Celtic prior to making my mind up about him, it's in the hands of others whether that happens.

I'd rather keep Stuart as I think one day everything will click for him and that reliability will come but until that happens he remains an enigmatic central midfielder, not a consistent one.
If McGinn comes Brendan could be seeing him as a long term project and be looking to improve him so that he is ready to replace Brown in a couple of years. Players train on and some even magically improve over night when put into a team of better players than who they played with previously. It's all an imperfect science.
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Novelty_Bauble
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I've always liked Armers but if he wants to move on then this window is the perfect time.
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Pussyfoot
À la mode if you will
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mick82
10 Jun 2018, 11:10 AM
Pussyfoot
10 Jun 2018, 09:39 AM
mick82
10 Jun 2018, 09:34 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
That's not my point, he was able to start those games. Armstrong hasn't managed it at United nor Celtic. N'tcham in his first full season looked a more reliable option.

I'd like to keep Armstrong but he's not been as reliable as others in that area of the field. The midfield is the rhythm of the side and the whole team benefits from consistency in that area, reliability.
Are you including in those percentages games in which Armstrong has been available to play but hasn’t been picked because Ntcham has been preferred?

My point is that you can’t use number of appearances alone to gauge “reliability”. You seem to be conflating that with availability.
No, I'm using starter vs substitute appearances, if anything it should skew slightly favourably toward Armstrong as he has more commonly been on the bench and been a sub therefore probably not selected to come on more often when indeed fit.
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Oscar Strummer
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Happy Joe
10 Jun 2018, 09:08 AM
I'd rather keep him and him sign a new long term contract...but if he wants to go? We'll get more than the £4m banded about in the SMSM imo, bottom half EPL clubs will happily pay between £6m-£8m, they regularly pay more than that for utter dross in the last years of their contracts...that together with Peter Lawwell driving a hard bargain..we'll get closer to £8m for Armstrong imo.

Do you really think that Peter Lawwell drives a hard bargain ?

What hard bargains has he driven to our significant benefit ?

Any good examples if you exclude dealings with Southampton ?


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Pussyfoot
À la mode if you will
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geezerbhoy
10 Jun 2018, 11:35 AM
Neil Jung
10 Jun 2018, 09:59 AM
Pussyfoot
10 Jun 2018, 09:39 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Stuart Armstrong's stats at United will be comparable or better than those of McGinn at Hibs and St Mirren. It is worth noting Armstrong's appearances were in the top division. Also worth noting are Armstrong's performances in Brendan's first season in charge. You want to compare him to NtCham - fine. I love NtCham and think he has so much potential but I doubt the word most in our support would use to describe him is reliable. I watched him dominate in games v Sevco but get hooked at half time v Hearts and Hibs. God, I watched him have a dreadful first 20-30 minutes away at Anderlecht before playing one of the most beautiful passes of the season to help set up our first goal. Different players have different attributes and bring different things to the team. Armstrong is a strong runner. He can carry the ball distances and also arrive in the box. Nobody else in our squad is as good at it as him. IfArmstrong goes it won't be a massive loss but we will be losing the only player in our squad who offers what he offers. McGinn is nowhere near being as good at it as him. McGinn also isn't as good as NtCham at passing or Brown as an all round midfielder. Replacing Armstrong with McGinn is a bad move.

:thumbsup:
Apologies for not making it clear, I'm not interested in tit fot tat opinions of who is better between Armstrong and McGinn, whom I'd need to see in action at Celtic prior to judging fully. I stand by my suggestion and working as to why Armstrong is not a fully reliable central midfielder and a bit of an enigma thus far.
Edited by Pussyfoot, 10 Jun 2018, 11:59 AM.
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Pussyfoot
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geezerbhoy
10 Jun 2018, 11:32 AM
Pussyfoot
10 Jun 2018, 09:13 AM
Stuart's a midfielder with winger or forward stats, I don't think he's started two thirds of appearances in his career and that's not what you need in central midfield. I think young Olivier in his first full season looked more reliable.

McGinn is miles above Armstrong in that department too. Putting other comparisons and attributes aside he's far more used to playing 90 minutes.
:ffs: mcginn a better player than armstrong :lol: :lol: behave yourself :ffs:
You missed the bit about putting other attributes and comparisons aside, it's factual not opinion, as far as my interpretation goes any road.
Edited by Pussyfoot, 10 Jun 2018, 12:05 PM.
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Happy Joe
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Oscar Strummer
10 Jun 2018, 11:55 AM
Happy Joe
10 Jun 2018, 09:08 AM
I'd rather keep him and him sign a new long term contract...but if he wants to go? We'll get more than the £4m banded about in the SMSM imo, bottom half EPL clubs will happily pay between £6m-£8m, they regularly pay more than that for utter dross in the last years of their contracts...that together with Peter Lawwell driving a hard bargain..we'll get closer to £8m for Armstrong imo.

Do you really think that Peter Lawwell drives a hard bargain ?

What hard bargains has he driven to our significant benefit ?

Any good examples if you exclude dealings with Southampton ?


McGeady to Spartak? Ki to Swansea? Andiuou can't just exclude the deals with made with Southampton for players...this is exactly the type of cluatthat will be bidding for Armstrong....and also bare in mind Brendan Rodgers won't except losing a player like Armstrong for a lower than market value price. He's said so himself regards any player leaving...it's not the league they play in..it's the quality of the player and how, we as a club value them. I just think we'll get more than the £4m fee most probably just made up! That all the SMSM seem to be going with, none of them know how much we value any of our players....I don't see it being any different with Armstrongs value.
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Midfield Maestro
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I'll be sorry to see him go as his energy and running from deep does cause teams problems domestically.

But, he's now no longer a regular starter and he has - all in - been pretty average for much of his time here. Six good months under Ronny and six great months under Brendan (plus a couple of other decent streaks) in three and a half seasons.

He's also one of our poorer players in Europe.
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Oscar Strummer
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Happy Joe
10 Jun 2018, 12:10 PM
Oscar Strummer
10 Jun 2018, 11:55 AM
Happy Joe
10 Jun 2018, 09:08 AM
I'd rather keep him and him sign a new long term contract...but if he wants to go? We'll get more than the £4m banded about in the SMSM imo, bottom half EPL clubs will happily pay between £6m-£8m, they regularly pay more than that for utter dross in the last years of their contracts...that together with Peter Lawwell driving a hard bargain..we'll get closer to £8m for Armstrong imo.

Do you really think that Peter Lawwell drives a hard bargain ?

What hard bargains has he driven to our significant benefit ?

Any good examples if you exclude dealings with Southampton ?


McGeady to Spartak? Ki to Swansea? Andiuou can't just exclude the deals with made with Southampton for players...this is exactly the type of cluatthat will be bidding for Armstrong....and also bare in mind Brendan Rodgers won't except losing a player like Armstrong for a lower than market value price. He's said so himself regards any player leaving...it's not the league they play in..it's the quality of the player and how, we as a club value them. I just think we'll get more than the £4m fee most probably just made up! That all the SMSM seem to be going with, none of them know how much we value any of our players....I don't see it being any different with Armstrongs value.

All fair points.

Although the market price will literally be decided by what clubs are willing to pay for a player who is out of contract in 12 months and who has suffered from injury/inconsistency for the past 12 months.

For what it's worth, I'd like him to sign a new contract and get back to his invincible form.


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He Cometh
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Oscar Strummer
10 Jun 2018, 11:55 AM
Happy Joe
10 Jun 2018, 09:08 AM
I'd rather keep him and him sign a new long term contract...but if he wants to go? We'll get more than the £4m banded about in the SMSM imo, bottom half EPL clubs will happily pay between £6m-£8m, they regularly pay more than that for utter dross in the last years of their contracts...that together with Peter Lawwell driving a hard bargain..we'll get closer to £8m for Armstrong imo.

Do you really think that Peter Lawwell drives a hard bargain ?

What hard bargains has he driven to our significant benefit ?

Any good examples if you exclude dealings with Southampton ?


He is renowned for it and always does the best for Celtic's interests.

We are generally accepted as one of the best run football clubs going. . . do you think that's down to the groundsman?
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Haitch
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Stick if possible. He’s a fine player. If he signed a long term deal and got leaving out his head I believe he would return to his 16/17 form in no time.
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IainG
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Haitch
10 Jun 2018, 12:39 PM
Stick if possible. He’s a fine player. If he signed a long term deal and got leaving out his head I believe he would return to his 16/17 form in no time.
I think the thought of playing in the EPL is an itch that won't go away. I would be surprised if he stayed with us.
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popeyed
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IainG
10 Jun 2018, 12:41 PM
Haitch
10 Jun 2018, 12:39 PM
Stick if possible. He’s a fine player. If he signed a long term deal and got leaving out his head I believe he would return to his 16/17 form in no time.
I think the thought of playing in the EPL is an itch that won't go away. I would be surprised if he stayed with us.
It was the Bundesliga a few year ago. It's dough he's wanting.
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Luigi
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Neil Jung
10 Jun 2018, 09:59 AM
Pussyfoot
10 Jun 2018, 09:39 AM
mick82
10 Jun 2018, 09:34 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
That's not my point, he was able to start those games. Armstrong hasn't managed it at United nor Celtic. N'tcham in his first full season looked a more reliable option.

I'd like to keep Armstrong but he's not been as reliable as others in that area of the field. The midfield is the rhythm of the side and the whole team benefits from consistency in that area, reliability.
Stuart Armstrong's stats at United will be comparable or better than those of McGinn at Hibs and St Mirren. It is worth noting Armstrong's appearances were in the top division. Also worth noting are Armstrong's performances in Brendan's first season in charge. You want to compare him to NtCham - fine. I love NtCham and think he has so much potential but I doubt the word most in our support would use to describe him is reliable. I watched him dominate in games v Sevco but get hooked at half time v Hearts and Hibs. God, I watched him have a dreadful first 20-30 minutes away at Anderlecht before playing one of the most beautiful passes of the season to help set up our first goal. Different players have different attributes and bring different things to the team. Armstrong is a strong runner. He can carry the ball distances and also arrive in the box. Nobody else in our squad is as good at it as him. IfArmstrong goes it won't be a massive loss but we will be losing the only player in our squad who offers what he offers. McGinn is nowhere near being as good at it as him. McGinn also isn't as good as NtCham at passing or Brown as an all round midfielder. Replacing Armstrong with McGinn is a bad move.

Well said :thumbsup:
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Bundy1967
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Why are people comparing McGinn and Armstrong? They have different styles and Armstrong is far better going forward, while McGinn is better defensively....can't see McGinn being a straight replacement, styles are too different
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Bundy1967
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Oscar Strummer
10 Jun 2018, 11:55 AM
Happy Joe
10 Jun 2018, 09:08 AM
I'd rather keep him and him sign a new long term contract...but if he wants to go? We'll get more than the £4m banded about in the SMSM imo, bottom half EPL clubs will happily pay between £6m-£8m, they regularly pay more than that for utter dross in the last years of their contracts...that together with Peter Lawwell driving a hard bargain..we'll get closer to £8m for Armstrong imo.

Do you really think that Peter Lawwell drives a hard bargain ?

What hard bargains has he driven to our significant benefit ?

Any good examples if you exclude dealings with Southampton ?


Kenny Miller to Derby😂 Stole money off them
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Kingslim
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Neil Jung
10 Jun 2018, 11:35 AM
Kingslim
10 Jun 2018, 10:32 AM
Neil Jung
10 Jun 2018, 09:59 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Your assessment of Ntcham is harsh. A lot of us were scratching our heads in the first season in games he either wasn’t starting or getting hooked early. It then comes to light, that Brendan didn’t think he was physically ready. He never deserved to be hooked at Tynecastle that day. He was howling in Anderlecht to begin with, but he recovered mentally and was probably our best player by the end of the game. There were some games during the season that if he’d been introduced earlier we probably would have won 0-0 Sevco and there was a home CL game he came on late as a sub - might have been Anderlecht at home. He’s was arguably our most important player in the big games last season. Even Astana away when others were crumbling he took the game by the scruff and scored the goal to ease he pressure.

He’s had his stinking days, like everyone, but most notably they have been at the likes of Kille and Hamilton on diabolical surfaces that players are probably more focused on not getting hurt. He had inconsistencies as you would expect from a 21 year but there’s no doubt Ntcham is reliable.

He may not have the running power of Armstrong who brings a different skillset but Ntcham is an absolute diamond of a player and I still can’t figure out how we managed to get him.
I love NtCham. In the match thread during his first game for us I predicted he'd be POTY because I was blown away by his skill set. I was wrong but often am. In that post I was being harsh, but also honest, to make a point. I don't believe NtCham has been reliable in the way Pussyfoot was using the word but I have no doubt he is an outstanding player who has the highest ceiling of all our midfielders.
:thumbsup:
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Oscar Strummer
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He Cometh
10 Jun 2018, 12:31 PM
Oscar Strummer
10 Jun 2018, 11:55 AM
Happy Joe
10 Jun 2018, 09:08 AM
I'd rather keep him and him sign a new long term contract...but if he wants to go? We'll get more than the £4m banded about in the SMSM imo, bottom half EPL clubs will happily pay between £6m-£8m, they regularly pay more than that for utter dross in the last years of their contracts...that together with Peter Lawwell driving a hard bargain..we'll get closer to £8m for Armstrong imo.

Do you really think that Peter Lawwell drives a hard bargain ?

What hard bargains has he driven to our significant benefit ?

Any good examples if you exclude dealings with Southampton ?


He is renowned for it and always does the best for Celtic's interests.

We are generally accepted as one of the best run football clubs going. . . do you think that's down to the groundsman?

I didn't say he didn't act in our best interests.

I didn't say we weren't a well run football club.

I didn't mention the groundsman.

But you knock yourself out :thumbsup:
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