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James Forrest; he's awright so he is.
Topic Started: 26 Feb 2015, 09:19 PM (518,062 Views)
Flawless
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See this scapegoat talk, it's keech. People see a player with talent who's not using it and worse failing to give his best when he's low in confidence.

He's rightly getting it in the neck, although booing him is a bit shampooe.

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Gallowgate
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Booing any of our players is counter productive and might well affect others in the team. Must be music to the ears of the opposition though to hear the home crowd on the back of one of their own.

Forrest might have been booed if we were comfortably ahead in the match but I very much doubt it. His has his admirers on here, based on what he was once capable of but those days are rapidly fading into the dim and distant past and I don't think we'll see a return to that kind of form.

He should be fully fit but it doesn't look like it. I can't believe it's all down to a bad attitude. Whatever it is we haven't had any return from him for a long time now and I don't think he'll get another contract.
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Rien_que_travail
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"He's rightly getting it in the neck"

How is that possible? :)
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Herb
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paulfg42
5 Mar 2015, 12:35 AM
Frannie2k5
5 Mar 2015, 12:26 AM
subtle_anxiety
4 Mar 2015, 11:10 PM
I still have faith James. The abuse he got tonight from the stand was embarrassing. The new boo boy because there is no-one else really to have a go at.
This comment is pitiful.

What did James Forrest bring to the game tonight.

Our two defensive wing backs, as it were, were not on the pitch, Izzy & Matthews. That's why he was put on as a sub.

Unless told otherwise by Delia, wee james's job was to provide.... eh... width.

HE ( I assume) decided not to do that.

What was his purpose on the pitch?

Effe efin' Ambrose was as wide as him on the pitch.

If I was Delia, I would have said, 'stay on the touchline and go at the full back'.

It's not hard, given his well-hidden and ultimately inneffectual pace.

He didn't. In that respect he is very consistent.

He has no ambition.

None.
That's all very well but you have no idea what instructions he was given.
RD said we were too narrow, so I assume Forrest was doing what he was told and staying as wide as possible. The fact that we didn't shift across as a unit often left Ambrose and Forrest isolated, and when they did get the ball there weren't enough Celtic players close to them to work it through St Johnstone.

When one player performs poorly, especially a player such as Forrest, you should always look around them first to see what support they're getting. Forrest, and Griffiths to a large extent, got no support. We'll learn from it.
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westendtim
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Forrest was poor, both in ability and attitude and this isn't a recent turn of events. Punt !!!
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popeyed
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MarkC
5 Mar 2015, 10:44 AM
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5 Mar 2015, 10:38 AM
Muzz
4 Mar 2015, 10:54 PM
Shirks responsibility at almost every opportunity.
This is what bugs me the most.
No wonder when the fans get on his back as soon as he misplaces a pass.

Guy is obviously toiling and is short of confidence. It doesn't need fans getting on to him as soon as he goes near the ball.
Surely to get that confidence back you try and beat players like you used to before, beat them, realise you can still do it, then don't worry any more? Cutting inside and playing a square baw is hardly going to help matters.
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Patrick_Bateman
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nowonder
5 Mar 2015, 11:21 AM
Patrick_Bateman
5 Mar 2015, 10:50 AM
Like I've said before these constant hamstring injuries have severely hampered his pace. He's never going to have the burst and acceleration he once had. It's not going to come back regardless of how long we wait or how patient we are with him.

As a result his direct style of play, knocking it past the full back and beating him for pace, doesn't work anymore. He can't beat people for pace anymore, he's not physically capable to accelerate explosively over 10 yards anymore. He knows this, so he doesn't even try. It's not a lack of confidence, he just can't do it anymore, hence he wanders aimlessly inside. There was one game last year where it was painfully apparent, he tried to take on some journeyman fullback three or four times, I think it was Tim Clancy or someone, but each time the full back comfortably had the speed to deal with him.
Think he needs a run of games before we can come to that conclusion and that's the problem...Think a lot of the frustration with Forrest is people have seen glimpses of how effective he can be.To be fair I'm sure he's more frustrated than anyone.
No we don't.

Hamstring injuries have a debilitating effect on speed. For someone like Forrest who has had chronic hamstring injuries, it's going to severely affect his speed and acceleration. That's not opinion, it's fact. He's never going to regain that speed and burst. That is also a fact. Even after rehab and rest each hamstring injury results in varying degrees of loss of muscle strength. A run of games has nothing to do with it.

Now you can argue whether he can get past a fullback in other ways rather than kick and rush, but he hasn't shown it to this point in his career.
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Herb
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Patrick_Bateman
5 Mar 2015, 02:09 PM
nowonder
5 Mar 2015, 11:21 AM
Patrick_Bateman
5 Mar 2015, 10:50 AM
Like I've said before these constant hamstring injuries have severely hampered his pace. He's never going to have the burst and acceleration he once had. It's not going to come back regardless of how long we wait or how patient we are with him.

As a result his direct style of play, knocking it past the full back and beating him for pace, doesn't work anymore. He can't beat people for pace anymore, he's not physically capable to accelerate explosively over 10 yards anymore. He knows this, so he doesn't even try. It's not a lack of confidence, he just can't do it anymore, hence he wanders aimlessly inside. There was one game last year where it was painfully apparent, he tried to take on some journeyman fullback three or four times, I think it was Tim Clancy or someone, but each time the full back comfortably had the speed to deal with him.
Think he needs a run of games before we can come to that conclusion and that's the problem...Think a lot of the frustration with Forrest is people have seen glimpses of how effective he can be.To be fair I'm sure he's more frustrated than anyone.
No we don't.

Hamstring injuries have a debilitating effect on speed. For someone like Forrest who has had chronic hamstring injuries, it's going to severely affect his speed and acceleration. That's not opinion, it's fact. He's never going to regain that speed and burst. That is also a fact. Even after rehab and rest each hamstring injury results in varying degrees of loss of muscle strength. A run of games has nothing to do with it.

Now you can argue whether he can get past a fullback in other ways rather than kick and rush, but he hasn't shown it to this point in his career.
I'd be interested to see the medical proof to back that assertion up. It seems intuitive. And you can just point at Michael Owen and say "Look!".
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Patrick_Bateman
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Herb
5 Mar 2015, 02:23 PM
Patrick_Bateman
5 Mar 2015, 02:09 PM
nowonder
5 Mar 2015, 11:21 AM

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No we don't.

Hamstring injuries have a debilitating effect on speed. For someone like Forrest who has had chronic hamstring injuries, it's going to severely affect his speed and acceleration. That's not opinion, it's fact. He's never going to regain that speed and burst. That is also a fact. Even after rehab and rest each hamstring injury results in varying degrees of loss of muscle strength. A run of games has nothing to do with it.

Now you can argue whether he can get past a fullback in other ways rather than kick and rush, but he hasn't shown it to this point in his career.
I'd be interested to see the medical proof to back that assertion up. It seems intuitive. And you can just point at Michael Owen and say "Look!".
There's plenty of medical research to back that up. Google it if you like. Basically what happens is after each hamstring injury the length of the tension curve of the muscle is reduced, which reduces the strength of the muscle. It is also the reason why hamstring injuries tend to be recurrent. Some studies believe the strength deficit of the injured muscle can be returned to normal after six months of rehab, but that is for a standard strain after which most footballers would return to play in a 10-12 day time span, and it is also debated.
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Herb
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5 Mar 2015, 02:39 PM
Herb
5 Mar 2015, 02:23 PM
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5 Mar 2015, 02:09 PM

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I'd be interested to see the medical proof to back that assertion up. It seems intuitive. And you can just point at Michael Owen and say "Look!".
There's plenty of medical research to back that up. Google it if you like. Basically what happens is after each hamstring injury the length of the tension curve of the muscle is reduced, which reduces the strength of the muscle. It is also the reason why hamstring injuries tend to be recurrent. Some studies believe the strength deficit of the injured muscle can be returned to normal after six months of rehab, but that is for a standard strain after which most footballers would return to play in a 10-12 day time span, and it is also debated.
Had a quick Google and couldn't find anything. I don't doubt you, just thought that as you brought it up you might have some links to where you learned it.

You can gain speed and pace through training though, wouldn't this negate the negative effect of the injury, or is it so large that pace will always decrease after such an injury?
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Patrick_Bateman
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Herb
5 Mar 2015, 03:39 PM
Patrick_Bateman
5 Mar 2015, 02:39 PM
Herb
5 Mar 2015, 02:23 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
There's plenty of medical research to back that up. Google it if you like. Basically what happens is after each hamstring injury the length of the tension curve of the muscle is reduced, which reduces the strength of the muscle. It is also the reason why hamstring injuries tend to be recurrent. Some studies believe the strength deficit of the injured muscle can be returned to normal after six months of rehab, but that is for a standard strain after which most footballers would return to play in a 10-12 day time span, and it is also debated.
Had a quick Google and couldn't find anything. I don't doubt you, just thought that as you brought it up you might have some links to where you learned it.

You can gain speed and pace through training though, wouldn't this negate the negative effect of the injury, or is it so large that pace will always decrease after such an injury?
There's always scar tissue, and scar tissue is less compliant than muscle tissue, so it results in shorter peak torque in the hamstring which basically means the hamstring is weaker. It depends largely on the type of tear, but even a "strain" or grade I tear, which is a couple of weeks out resting, leaves scar tissue.

As I said some studies are of the opinion that 6 months of rehab can result in the muscle fibres around the scar tissue lengthening which would recover the strength deficit in the muscle, but it's disputed. And anyway 6 months of rest and rehab for an injury that normally keeps a footballer out for a fortnight isn't really feasible. The problem is that the tears tend to happen in the same area over and over, due to stress so the surrounding muscle fibre will never be able to recover the strength deficit.
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Herb
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Patrick_Bateman
5 Mar 2015, 03:56 PM
Herb
5 Mar 2015, 03:39 PM
Patrick_Bateman
5 Mar 2015, 02:39 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Had a quick Google and couldn't find anything. I don't doubt you, just thought that as you brought it up you might have some links to where you learned it.

You can gain speed and pace through training though, wouldn't this negate the negative effect of the injury, or is it so large that pace will always decrease after such an injury?
There's always scar tissue, and scar tissue is less compliant than muscle tissue, so it results in shorter peak torque in the hamstring which basically means the hamstring is weaker. It depends largely on the type of tear, but even a "strain" or grade I tear, which is a couple of weeks out resting, leaves scar tissue.

As I said some studies are of the opinion that 6 months of rehab can result in the muscle fibres around the scar tissue lengthening which would recover the strength deficit in the muscle, but it's disputed. And anyway 6 months of rest and rehab for an injury that normally keeps a footballer out for a fortnight isn't really feasible. The problem is that the tears tend to happen in the same area over and over, due to stress so the surrounding muscle fibre will never be able to recover the strength deficit.
:thumbsup: How much would Forrest's injuries have reduced his pace, roughly?
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Patrick_Bateman
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Herb
5 Mar 2015, 04:02 PM
Patrick_Bateman
5 Mar 2015, 03:56 PM
Herb
5 Mar 2015, 03:39 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
There's always scar tissue, and scar tissue is less compliant than muscle tissue, so it results in shorter peak torque in the hamstring which basically means the hamstring is weaker. It depends largely on the type of tear, but even a "strain" or grade I tear, which is a couple of weeks out resting, leaves scar tissue.

As I said some studies are of the opinion that 6 months of rehab can result in the muscle fibres around the scar tissue lengthening which would recover the strength deficit in the muscle, but it's disputed. And anyway 6 months of rest and rehab for an injury that normally keeps a footballer out for a fortnight isn't really feasible. The problem is that the tears tend to happen in the same area over and over, due to stress so the surrounding muscle fibre will never be able to recover the strength deficit.
:thumbsup: How much would Forrest's injuries have reduced his pace, roughly?
No idea. Far too many unknown factors to take into consideration.

But it will have had an effect.
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BombJack
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I'm not sure about "attitude" but last night when James came on he was totally ineffective.
And to be honest, why was he playing?
If he's not quite up to scratch, and isn't capable of doing what he's meant to when put on the field, why not go with someone else - eg Henderson?
Last night Forrest didn't attempt once, to go past his fullback - instead - came inside and ran into dead ends - at one point, killing stone dead by himself what initially looked like potentially a really good counter attack.
Really poor.

That said, I really hope he manages to get back to form - he can be excellent when he's on form - but it seems like quite a while since we've seen that.
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ChiliPepper
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I want to have faith in him, but this is the 3rd season in a row he has been injured and unable to produce. If it was any other player they'd be gone by now.

I really want him to just find form now. It's too late for him to be filling potential, but he still has quality.

Edited by ChiliPepper, 5 Mar 2015, 04:16 PM.
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The fans need to get behind players through thick and thin. His confidence is short because he has been injured so much. The last time he came out he pulled something in about 20 minutes and was out for months. It's only natural that he would be tentative to go full throttle. He is one of the brightest talents we have from the boys club in decades and people are ready to throw him in the scrap heap. I wonder if these same people, so called fans, could live up to this scrutiny at their own work.

:)
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antonylockhart
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5 Mar 2015, 04:19 PM
The fans need to get behind players through thick and thin. His confidence is short because he has been injured so much. The last time he came out he pulled something in about 20 minutes and was out for months. It's only natural that he would be tentative to go full throttle. He is one of the brightest talents we have from the boys club in decades and people are ready to throw him in the scrap heap. I wonder if these same people, so called fans, could live up to this scrutiny at their own work.

:)
If I only did my job a few times a year and was utterly pish at it when I did, I'd expect to lose it too
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paulfg42
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Patrick_Bateman
5 Mar 2015, 02:09 PM
nowonder
5 Mar 2015, 11:21 AM
Patrick_Bateman
5 Mar 2015, 10:50 AM
Like I've said before these constant hamstring injuries have severely hampered his pace. He's never going to have the burst and acceleration he once had. It's not going to come back regardless of how long we wait or how patient we are with him.

As a result his direct style of play, knocking it past the full back and beating him for pace, doesn't work anymore. He can't beat people for pace anymore, he's not physically capable to accelerate explosively over 10 yards anymore. He knows this, so he doesn't even try. It's not a lack of confidence, he just can't do it anymore, hence he wanders aimlessly inside. There was one game last year where it was painfully apparent, he tried to take on some journeyman fullback three or four times, I think it was Tim Clancy or someone, but each time the full back comfortably had the speed to deal with him.
Think he needs a run of games before we can come to that conclusion and that's the problem...Think a lot of the frustration with Forrest is people have seen glimpses of how effective he can be.To be fair I'm sure he's more frustrated than anyone.
No we don't.

Hamstring injuries have a debilitating effect on speed. For someone like Forrest who has had chronic hamstring injuries, it's going to severely affect his speed and acceleration. That's not opinion, it's fact. He's never going to regain that speed and burst. That is also a fact. Even after rehab and rest each hamstring injury results in varying degrees of loss of muscle strength. A run of games has nothing to do with it.

Now you can argue whether he can get past a fullback in other ways rather than kick and rush, but he hasn't shown it to this point in his career.
Fact? Really?

Edit: from a 2012 study "little is known, definitively, about why previous injury increases the risk of future HSIs". I've not found anything that says HSIs will affect future speed. Many sprinters who've won championships, Olymppic medals have had HSIs. Surely, developments in medical care for injuries and regular physiotherapy would minimise the accumulation of scar tissue. We'd need to know the nature of Forrest's injuries, his speed prior to injury and speed now.

None of that of course explains his lack of form. Missing out on pre-season training, lack of match practice and perhaps a loss of confidence could be as significant as any previous injuries he has suffered.
Edited by paulfg42, 5 Mar 2015, 05:03 PM.
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Patrick_Bateman
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paulfg42
5 Mar 2015, 04:45 PM
Patrick_Bateman
5 Mar 2015, 02:09 PM
nowonder
5 Mar 2015, 11:21 AM

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No we don't.

Hamstring injuries have a debilitating effect on speed. For someone like Forrest who has had chronic hamstring injuries, it's going to severely affect his speed and acceleration. That's not opinion, it's fact. He's never going to regain that speed and burst. That is also a fact. Even after rehab and rest each hamstring injury results in varying degrees of loss of muscle strength. A run of games has nothing to do with it.

Now you can argue whether he can get past a fullback in other ways rather than kick and rush, but he hasn't shown it to this point in his career.
Fact? Really?
Yes
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paulfg42
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Patrick_Bateman
5 Mar 2015, 04:56 PM
paulfg42
5 Mar 2015, 04:45 PM
Patrick_Bateman
5 Mar 2015, 02:09 PM

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Fact? Really?
Yes
I've replied above. Can you supply any definitive article which suggests the scenario you've outlined for professional footballers or other athletes?
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