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The Board - general discussion (including Res 12); notes from the AGM
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Topic Started: 15 Jul 2014, 12:03 AM (1,415,018 Views)
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katlegend
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27 Jul 2014, 01:05 PM
Post #141
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- pauljames213
- 27 Jul 2014, 12:01 PM
I live in the real world so don't have massive expectations in relation to the signings we make. I understand the restrictive circumstances we operate in and I don't expect us to sign Messi et al. However, i just feel that despite the years in the CL and the massive transfer fees we have taken in as well as freeing up wages, the team just seems to be getting worse with each passing transfer window. As a supporter I certainly don't feel that we are a better team for the CL campaigns. Last season we played very poor football for pretty much the entire CL campaign, only scored in 2 of the 6 group games, lost 5 out of 6 and got our arse handed to us by Barcelona (which is excusable) and a very poor Milan side (less so). And this is compounded when you read stuff like this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2554412/Celtic-spend-8m-summer-big-signing-boost-Neil-Lennons-Champions-League-hopes-says-Peter-Lawwell.html where PL is quoted as saying we could spend £8m on a player and will have 'substantial funds' to spend. We are never going to spend £8m on a single player (and neither do i think we should) but don't insult our intelligence by pretending we might. We are now at the situation where we are going into our most important games of the season weaker than we were last year. Last year we were weaker than the previous year and squeaked through a tie that we should have won comfortably. And eventually it is going to come home to roost and we are not going to get through one of these ties. if i was a betting man, i suspect that come the end of the transfer window we will have a variation on 'we tried to get a few things over the line but didnt quite manage it'. Spot on. Lawell has also told us in the past that it's always the club's aim to come out of a transfer window stronger than we went into it. That clearly didn't happen last summer & I would be astonished if it did this year. After last summers disgraceful window I have reached the point where I have no expectations. Still some people will believe & accept anything.
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CarlisleCelt
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27 Jul 2014, 01:15 PM
Post #142
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What I wonder in all honesty is where has all the cash gone? As many have said a lot of money has been brought in through CL/Transfers etc but "as I see it" very little spent. If there is cash mountain there why?
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Emerald Oracle
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27 Jul 2014, 02:06 PM
Post #143
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My main concern is that the director of football's expertise lies in finance and not football itself so we may well be having rely on the coaches ability to get the best out of whoever is sprung on them.
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crtmmc
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27 Jul 2014, 04:23 PM
Post #144
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No right minded person would question the need for financial prudence but the motivation behind the policy that governs the level of financial prudence is a question that constantly plagues my mind.
I question whether the financial prudence is balanced to keep the club in good financial order and then produce the best football team possible or to keep the club in good financial order, major shareholders then getting a healthy return on their investment and finally keeping a decent football team on the park.
On balance I think the club is run as a business to produce a financial return to the principal shareholders and football is secondary to that purpose.
I have never made any attempt to identify who has money invested in the club and how they receive a return on that money. I would be interested however to know the facts. I suspect it is not just through dividends paid to preference shareholders but there will be other methods for pulling out and perhaps some of the skilled accountants on the board might comment.
We all know that Derek Desmond is the main shareholder but who are the other largest shareholders and what motivates Desmond and these others to put their money into the Club - is it the love of Celtic or as I think above ''well I am fond of Celtic but need a decent return on money invested''. These are the guys that employ Peter Lawwell and dictate his policiies. I would have though that he is little more than a senior employee and in no way a policy maker.
I have questions rather than answers and would be interested in views of those who are knowledgeable in company accounting and their views on the clubs finances.
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SacredHoops
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27 Jul 2014, 04:51 PM
Post #145
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- the_cannelloni_of_charisma
- 27 Jul 2014, 12:36 PM
I feel the problem we have is that Lawell has far too much power now. I am convinced that Lawell was the biggest factor in Lenny leaving.
I'll go back to my big Greek pal when he mentioned that Lennon's hands were tied in resigning him. Lennon wanted to keep Samaras, Lawell didn't want to pay the wages. I am not entirely convinced that Balde or Boerrigter where Lennon signings either. Ledley leaving I think was another strain in Lennon/Lawell relationship.
I would think there will be a few disgruntled board members not overly impressed with Lawell. I'm torn on this one. For a club like us, we have to box clever, and the days of a manager having the authority over the entirety of the club is over, and if Lennon couldn't deal with that then fine, we get someone in who can. It's not a case of being a yes man as I've seen it described on here, but it's being a manager who understands his role in success for the club. I think the decision to invest in youth development and scouting is a good one, as we have to leave the short-term and first team affairs to the manager and have others concerning themselves with the longer term. However, as much as the theory is good, whoever is making the calls on these players is causing the club to hemorrhage cash on absolute duds, whether that is Lawwell, John Park or whoever else, and they need to be replaced. The theory of buying Hooper, getting a few years out of him and selling for a profit is great, but there's some logical gymnastics going on when we burn that profit and more signing Pukki, Balde and Griffiths to replace him, none of whom are even half the player, and none of whom we could sell on for a profit.
The party line is often spewed out about not being able to attract players - well, as much as the league is uncompetitive, somebody is failing at their job if we can't attract some decent standard players to play here.
I think Lenny was happy with Boerrigter signing though. He was very positive about him when he did sign.
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richiebhoy1888
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27 Jul 2014, 05:11 PM
Post #146
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Everyone's Fantasy Football first pick
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Do people on here think that Peter Lawell and the board are not interested in winning as many games / trophies as possible ,and only want to keep the balance sheet looking good ? I think he does a great job . Yes I would love us to splash the cash in transfer market and bring in some new signings,and I'm sure it will happen. But spending mega bucks ain't going to happen and rightly so.
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only1henke
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27 Jul 2014, 05:19 PM
Post #147
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- richiebhoy1888
- 27 Jul 2014, 05:11 PM
Do people on here think that Peter Lawell and the board are not interested in winning as many games / trophies as possible ,and only want to keep the balance sheet looking good ? I think he does a great job . Yes I would love us to splash the cash in transfer market and bring in some new signings,and I'm sure it will happen. But spending mega bucks ain't going to happen and rightly so. No one is advocating that though. Have you actually read the thread?
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SacredHoops
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27 Jul 2014, 05:22 PM
Post #148
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- richiebhoy1888
- 27 Jul 2014, 05:11 PM
Do people on here think that Peter Lawell and the board are not interested in winning as many games / trophies as possible ,and only want to keep the balance sheet looking good ? I think he does a great job . Yes I would love us to splash the cash in transfer market and bring in some new signings,and I'm sure it will happen. But spending mega bucks ain't going to happen and rightly so. They will want to keep the finances good, and there's no arguments about that from anyone. I think the approach to signing players is seriously flawed though.
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CELTBHOY1988
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27 Jul 2014, 05:28 PM
Post #149
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- CarlisleCelt
- 27 Jul 2014, 01:15 PM
What I wonder in all honesty is where has all the cash gone? As many have said a lot of money has been brought in through CL/Transfers etc but "as I see it" very little spent. If there is cash mountain there why? Wage bill. Bank debt. Operating expenses Lawells Salary.
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katlegend
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27 Jul 2014, 05:39 PM
Post #150
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- richiebhoy1888
- 27 Jul 2014, 05:11 PM
Do people on here think that Peter Lawell and the board are not interested in winning as many games / trophies as possible ,and only want to keep the balance sheet looking good ? I think he does a great job . Yes I would love us to splash the cash in transfer market and bring in some new signings,and I'm sure it will happen. But spending mega bucks ain't going to happen and rightly so. Nobody expects us to spend mega bucks. The problem is that we are not prepared to spend anywhere near what we can well afford to.The last two years in particular have shown that. The inevitable result of this current policy is the extremely poor standard of side we are now fielding. We are a football club first & foremost & giving Celtic Jerseys to so many of the current dross is hardly doing a good job.i think we can afford & that the support deserve, much better than Balde,Pukki & Craig Gordon.
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Wee Ed KTF
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27 Jul 2014, 05:52 PM
Post #151
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- katlegend
- 27 Jul 2014, 05:39 PM
- richiebhoy1888
- 27 Jul 2014, 05:11 PM
Do people on here think that Peter Lawell and the board are not interested in winning as many games / trophies as possible ,and only want to keep the balance sheet looking good ? I think he does a great job . Yes I would love us to splash the cash in transfer market and bring in some new signings,and I'm sure it will happen. But spending mega bucks ain't going to happen and rightly so.
Nobody expects us to spend mega bucks. The problem is that we are not prepared to spend anywhere near what we can well afford to.The last two years in particular have shown that. The inevitable result of this current policy is the extremely poor standard of side we are now fielding. We are a football club first & foremost & giving Celtic Jerseys to so many of the current dross is hardly doing a good job.i think we can afford & that the support deserve, much better than Balde,Pukki & Craig Gordon. "Balde, Pukki and Craig Gordon" ...............................................
Because.............
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FatherSpliffmas
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27 Jul 2014, 05:59 PM
Post #152
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- katlegend
- 27 Jul 2014, 01:05 PM
- pauljames213
- 27 Jul 2014, 12:01 PM
I live in the real world so don't have massive expectations in relation to the signings we make. I understand the restrictive circumstances we operate in and I don't expect us to sign Messi et al. However, i just feel that despite the years in the CL and the massive transfer fees we have taken in as well as freeing up wages, the team just seems to be getting worse with each passing transfer window. As a supporter I certainly don't feel that we are a better team for the CL campaigns. Last season we played very poor football for pretty much the entire CL campaign, only scored in 2 of the 6 group games, lost 5 out of 6 and got our arse handed to us by Barcelona (which is excusable) and a very poor Milan side (less so). And this is compounded when you read stuff like this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2554412/Celtic-spend-8m-summer-big-signing-boost-Neil-Lennons-Champions-League-hopes-says-Peter-Lawwell.html where PL is quoted as saying we could spend £8m on a player and will have 'substantial funds' to spend. We are never going to spend £8m on a single player (and neither do i think we should) but don't insult our intelligence by pretending we might. We are now at the situation where we are going into our most important games of the season weaker than we were last year. Last year we were weaker than the previous year and squeaked through a tie that we should have won comfortably. And eventually it is going to come home to roost and we are not going to get through one of these ties. if i was a betting man, i suspect that come the end of the transfer window we will have a variation on 'we tried to get a few things over the line but didnt quite manage it'.
Spot on. Lawell has also told us in the past that it's always the club's aim to come out of a transfer window stronger than we went into it. That clearly didn't happen last summer & I would be astonished if it did this year. After last summers disgraceful window I have reached the point where I have no expectations. Still some people will believe & accept anything. Last summer we signed Pukki (£2.4m), Biton (£700k), Boerrigter (£1m), Van Dijk (£2.6m) and Balde (£1.8m).
A decent level of funds were made available. Whether it was the fault of scouts, Lennon, or a combination of both, the signings made were poor. The board can't be faulted on that one IMO.
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paulfg42
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27 Jul 2014, 06:14 PM
Post #153
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Fiat justitia ruat caelum
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Agree with all those who say Lawwell is grossly overpaid. We're downsizing yet the CEO still earns a huge salary. And interferes in football decisions.
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Emerald Oracle
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27 Jul 2014, 06:15 PM
Post #154
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- FatherSpliffmas
- 27 Jul 2014, 05:59 PM
- katlegend
- 27 Jul 2014, 01:05 PM
- pauljames213
- 27 Jul 2014, 12:01 PM
I live in the real world so don't have massive expectations in relation to the signings we make. I understand the restrictive circumstances we operate in and I don't expect us to sign Messi et al. However, i just feel that despite the years in the CL and the massive transfer fees we have taken in as well as freeing up wages, the team just seems to be getting worse with each passing transfer window. As a supporter I certainly don't feel that we are a better team for the CL campaigns. Last season we played very poor football for pretty much the entire CL campaign, only scored in 2 of the 6 group games, lost 5 out of 6 and got our arse handed to us by Barcelona (which is excusable) and a very poor Milan side (less so). And this is compounded when you read stuff like this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2554412/Celtic-spend-8m-summer-big-signing-boost-Neil-Lennons-Champions-League-hopes-says-Peter-Lawwell.html where PL is quoted as saying we could spend £8m on a player and will have 'substantial funds' to spend. We are never going to spend £8m on a single player (and neither do i think we should) but don't insult our intelligence by pretending we might. We are now at the situation where we are going into our most important games of the season weaker than we were last year. Last year we were weaker than the previous year and squeaked through a tie that we should have won comfortably. And eventually it is going to come home to roost and we are not going to get through one of these ties. if i was a betting man, i suspect that come the end of the transfer window we will have a variation on 'we tried to get a few things over the line but didnt quite manage it'.
Spot on. Lawell has also told us in the past that it's always the club's aim to come out of a transfer window stronger than we went into it. That clearly didn't happen last summer & I would be astonished if it did this year. After last summers disgraceful window I have reached the point where I have no expectations. Still some people will believe & accept anything.
Last summer we signed Pukki (£2.4m), Biton (£700k), Boerrigter (£1m), Van Dijk (£2.6m) and Balde (£1.8m). A decent level of funds were made available. Whether it was the fault of scouts, Lennon, or a combination of both, the signings made were poor. The board can't be faulted on that one IMO. When it's put like that it looks better, Hooper was bought for a similar fee as what was spent on Pukki. But we are hoping the player will perform at similar levels which is not guaranteed. These fees must be spent spent combined on one or two signings rather than multiple. Whoever scouted Balde should be seriously questioned as to wether they are competent at their job.
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ewtim
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27 Jul 2014, 06:17 PM
Post #155
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- crtmmc
- 27 Jul 2014, 04:23 PM
No right minded person would question the need for financial prudence but the motivation behind the policy that governs the level of financial prudence is a question that constantly plagues my mind.
I question whether the financial prudence is balanced to keep the club in good financial order and then produce the best football team possible or to keep the club in good financial order, major shareholders then getting a healthy return on their investment and finally keeping a decent football team on the park.
On balance I think the club is run as a business to produce a financial return to the principal shareholders and football is secondary to that purpose.
I have never made any attempt to identify who has money invested in the club and how they receive a return on that money. I would be interested however to know the facts. I suspect it is not just through dividends paid to preference shareholders but there will be other methods for pulling out and perhaps some of the skilled accountants on the board might comment.
We all know that Derek Desmond is the main shareholder but who are the other largest shareholders and what motivates Desmond and these others to put their money into the Club - is it the love of Celtic or as I think above ''well I am fond of Celtic but need a decent return on money invested''. These are the guys that employ Peter Lawwell and dictate his policiies. I would have though that he is little more than a senior employee and in no way a policy maker.
I have questions rather than answers and would be interested in views of those who are knowledgeable in company accounting and their views on the clubs finances.
Don't know much about Derek, but his brother Dermot is worth the watchin.......
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The Green Lantern
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27 Jul 2014, 06:45 PM
Post #156
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- katlegend
- 27 Jul 2014, 05:39 PM
- richiebhoy1888
- 27 Jul 2014, 05:11 PM
Do people on here think that Peter Lawell and the board are not interested in winning as many games / trophies as possible ,and only want to keep the balance sheet looking good ? I think he does a great job . Yes I would love us to splash the cash in transfer market and bring in some new signings,and I'm sure it will happen. But spending mega bucks ain't going to happen and rightly so.
Nobody expects us to spend mega bucks. The problem is that we are not prepared to spend anywhere near what we can well afford to.The last two years in particular have shown that. The inevitable result of this current policy is the extremely poor standard of side we are now fielding. We are a football club first & foremost & giving Celtic Jerseys to so many of the current dross is hardly doing a good job.i think we can afford & that the support deserve, much better than Balde,Pukki & Craig Gordon. And what does mega bucks even mean? Mega bucks in today's climate is £60 million on a guy who had a good World Cup, not spending a tenth of that to get a guy who might be able to win us some games in the CL group stages.
Surely there comes a point when the club has to speculate more than previously? For example, Porto do well because they buy relatively high and then sell very high. We need to get to that stage if this so-called 'Model' is to work - both on the field and off.
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Big_Bobo_Balde
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27 Jul 2014, 07:37 PM
Post #157
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Cost, travel, downsizing and the financial climate have taken their toll, the club should and are well aware of these facts.
I'd love a huge name signing, but we have had little success when we have, I don't like projects but there has to be a middle ground.
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richiebhoy1888
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27 Jul 2014, 07:42 PM
Post #158
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Everyone's Fantasy Football first pick
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- only1henke
- 27 Jul 2014, 05:19 PM
- richiebhoy1888
- 27 Jul 2014, 05:11 PM
Do people on here think that Peter Lawell and the board are not interested in winning as many games / trophies as possible ,and only want to keep the balance sheet looking good ? I think he does a great job . Yes I would love us to splash the cash in transfer market and bring in some new signings,and I'm sure it will happen. But spending mega bucks ain't going to happen and rightly so.
No one is advocating that though. Have you actually read the thread? Why the sarcastic end to you post?? Yes I've read the thread,and that's what I take that some people are hinting at. It's the same in work and in the pub or at the games ....there's always people not happy with something that the board are doing . For what it's worth ( and I may be in the minority ) I like Peter Lawell I believe he has Celtic best interests at heart and in the main does a good job
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gaznmbr7
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27 Jul 2014, 07:55 PM
Post #159
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- FatherSpliffmas
- 27 Jul 2014, 05:59 PM
- katlegend
- 27 Jul 2014, 01:05 PM
- pauljames213
- 27 Jul 2014, 12:01 PM
I live in the real world so don't have massive expectations in relation to the signings we make. I understand the restrictive circumstances we operate in and I don't expect us to sign Messi et al. However, i just feel that despite the years in the CL and the massive transfer fees we have taken in as well as freeing up wages, the team just seems to be getting worse with each passing transfer window. As a supporter I certainly don't feel that we are a better team for the CL campaigns. Last season we played very poor football for pretty much the entire CL campaign, only scored in 2 of the 6 group games, lost 5 out of 6 and got our arse handed to us by Barcelona (which is excusable) and a very poor Milan side (less so). And this is compounded when you read stuff like this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2554412/Celtic-spend-8m-summer-big-signing-boost-Neil-Lennons-Champions-League-hopes-says-Peter-Lawwell.html where PL is quoted as saying we could spend £8m on a player and will have 'substantial funds' to spend. We are never going to spend £8m on a single player (and neither do i think we should) but don't insult our intelligence by pretending we might. We are now at the situation where we are going into our most important games of the season weaker than we were last year. Last year we were weaker than the previous year and squeaked through a tie that we should have won comfortably. And eventually it is going to come home to roost and we are not going to get through one of these ties. if i was a betting man, i suspect that come the end of the transfer window we will have a variation on 'we tried to get a few things over the line but didnt quite manage it'.
Spot on. Lawell has also told us in the past that it's always the club's aim to come out of a transfer window stronger than we went into it. That clearly didn't happen last summer & I would be astonished if it did this year. After last summers disgraceful window I have reached the point where I have no expectations. Still some people will believe & accept anything.
Last summer we signed Pukki (£2.4m), Biton (£700k), Boerrigter (£1m), Van Dijk (£2.6m) and Balde (£1.8m). A decent level of funds were made available. Whether it was the fault of scouts, Lennon, or a combination of both, the signings made were poor. The board can't be faulted on that one IMO. i dont believe a single price we are told that the club has paid anymore.
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Corky Buczek
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27 Jul 2014, 08:08 PM
Post #160
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- FatherSpliffmas
- 27 Jul 2014, 05:59 PM
- katlegend
- 27 Jul 2014, 01:05 PM
- pauljames213
- 27 Jul 2014, 12:01 PM
I live in the real world so don't have massive expectations in relation to the signings we make. I understand the restrictive circumstances we operate in and I don't expect us to sign Messi et al. However, i just feel that despite the years in the CL and the massive transfer fees we have taken in as well as freeing up wages, the team just seems to be getting worse with each passing transfer window. As a supporter I certainly don't feel that we are a better team for the CL campaigns. Last season we played very poor football for pretty much the entire CL campaign, only scored in 2 of the 6 group games, lost 5 out of 6 and got our arse handed to us by Barcelona (which is excusable) and a very poor Milan side (less so). And this is compounded when you read stuff like this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2554412/Celtic-spend-8m-summer-big-signing-boost-Neil-Lennons-Champions-League-hopes-says-Peter-Lawwell.html where PL is quoted as saying we could spend £8m on a player and will have 'substantial funds' to spend. We are never going to spend £8m on a single player (and neither do i think we should) but don't insult our intelligence by pretending we might. We are now at the situation where we are going into our most important games of the season weaker than we were last year. Last year we were weaker than the previous year and squeaked through a tie that we should have won comfortably. And eventually it is going to come home to roost and we are not going to get through one of these ties. if i was a betting man, i suspect that come the end of the transfer window we will have a variation on 'we tried to get a few things over the line but didnt quite manage it'.
Spot on. Lawell has also told us in the past that it's always the club's aim to come out of a transfer window stronger than we went into it. That clearly didn't happen last summer & I would be astonished if it did this year. After last summers disgraceful window I have reached the point where I have no expectations. Still some people will believe & accept anything.
Last summer we signed Pukki (£2.4m), Biton (£700k), Boerrigter (£1m), Van Dijk (£2.6m) and Balde (£1.8m). A decent level of funds were made available. Whether it was the fault of scouts, Lennon, or a combination of both, the signings made were poor. The board can't be faulted on that one IMO. Totally disagree. We took in approx £16M.
We sold our best striker, a very good defensive midfielder and our best centre half. We adequately replaced one of them and spent half of what we took in. That isn't the fault of the manger but of the CEO who also acts as Director of Football. If we sell a striker for £5M why not buy a replacement at close to the amount we raked in ? You will - in all likelihood- get a better striker at that price as opposed to rummaging around the bargain basement looking for quality strikers at less than £2M.
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