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The Board - general discussion (including Res 12); notes from the AGM
Topic Started: 15 Jul 2014, 12:03 AM (1,414,951 Views)
wigwam
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Older than dirt
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Bertie Peacock
12 Aug 2014, 06:46 PM
The Green Lantern
12 Aug 2014, 06:32 PM
What's strange to me is that the Board pretend that they're running the business brilliantly but they've failed to implement some basic things. All businesses take calculated investment risks by weighing up what it'll cost versus the return on that investment. It doesn't matter if you're the guy who owns the local paper shop or if you're running Apple Mac, at some point you need to speculate to (at least try to) accumulate.

All the Board seem to be doing is accruing as much income as possible, driving down costs year-on-year and pretending it's not having a negative effect. Meanwhile the on-field performances are getting worse, the fans are losing interest and we risk losing CL income. In business terms, they've got a product that fewer customers want to buy, whilst risking jeopardising the business' most valuable revenue stream. Objectively, that's not a well-run business.
:thumbsup:
Unless they regard their customers as mugs who will continue to roll up regardless of the performances, which is unfortunately where we may be.
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kellybhoy
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Play me or trade me
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wigwam
12 Aug 2014, 09:10 PM
Bertie Peacock
12 Aug 2014, 06:46 PM
The Green Lantern
12 Aug 2014, 06:32 PM
What's strange to me is that the Board pretend that they're running the business brilliantly but they've failed to implement some basic things. All businesses take calculated investment risks by weighing up what it'll cost versus the return on that investment. It doesn't matter if you're the guy who owns the local paper shop or if you're running Apple Mac, at some point you need to speculate to (at least try to) accumulate.

All the Board seem to be doing is accruing as much income as possible, driving down costs year-on-year and pretending it's not having a negative effect. Meanwhile the on-field performances are getting worse, the fans are losing interest and we risk losing CL income. In business terms, they've got a product that fewer customers want to buy, whilst risking jeopardising the business' most valuable revenue stream. Objectively, that's not a well-run business.
:thumbsup:
Unless they regard their customers as mugs who will continue to roll up regardless of the performances, which is unfortunately where we may be.
I have a serious question. Reading the posts here would suggest that many people think that we have all this money sitting in the bank, and the Board refuse to spend it. I think many people assume that because we sold one or two players recently we must have millions sitting there waiting to be spent on players. Do we actually have millions of pounds sitting in the bank? This is a genuine question because I have not been reading the accounts lately but I know some people on here are quite knowledgeable about our finances. I do know that we are a public company and therefore cannot hide money from the public, so if we have spare cash then the accounts must show it.
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Joe the Baker
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It feels like yesterday... I wish it was tomorrow.
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Ron Swanson
12 Aug 2014, 08:53 PM
Lubolu
12 Aug 2014, 08:52 PM
Barnsey
12 Aug 2014, 08:47 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
They're married are they not?
He'll no be pumping her then.
:lol:
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Lobey Dosser
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Considering retirement
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kellybhoy
12 Aug 2014, 09:20 PM
wigwam
12 Aug 2014, 09:10 PM
Bertie Peacock
12 Aug 2014, 06:46 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Unless they regard their customers as mugs who will continue to roll up regardless of the performances, which is unfortunately where we may be.
I have a serious question. Reading the posts here would suggest that many people think that we have all this money sitting in the bank, and the Board refuse to spend it. I think many people assume that because we sold one or two players recently we must have millions sitting there waiting to be spent on players. Do we actually have millions of pounds sitting in the bank? This is a genuine question because I have not been reading the accounts lately but I know some people on here are quite knowledgeable about our finances. I do know that we are a public company and therefore cannot hide money from the public, so if we have spare cash then the accounts must show it.
They do, and we have.
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Poggibonsi
Occasional Substitute
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Last interim accounts show we had £16.6m cash in hand at bank on 31 December last year. Only a snapshot in time but still shows very healthy position relative to previous years
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sevilliano
Retired and now a BT Sports pundit
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We have mountains of cash but unfortunately it's been designated in a meeting attended by PL as only being available for signing fees but this means we only have tony watts wages available for wages

We've really tried to make it work

But life's a bitch
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frankebhoy
Everyone's Fantasy Football first pick
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DOCKERDOYLE
11 Aug 2014, 11:38 PM
Declan Brendan Timmy Bhoy
11 Aug 2014, 11:20 PM
But something can only be pulled so long before it snaps
:suspect:



Agree with the rest of your post :thumbsup:
:lol:
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Gonga
Older than dirt
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Here's a thought.

Peter Lawwell no longer sees the Champions League as the most lucrative form of revenue.

With the influx of overly stupidly ridiculous money, even noticeably more than in the past, The EPL and Championship could
keep us comfortable just by buying our better players every few years.

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mr green sky
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First name on the team-sheet
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Gonga
12 Aug 2014, 11:17 PM
Here's a thought.

Peter Lawwell no longer sees the Champions League as the most lucrative form of revenue.

With the influx of overly stupidly ridiculous money, even noticeably more than in the past, The EPL and Championship could
keep us comfortable just by buying our better players every few years.

Once vvd goes that plan will go breests up
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wimthetim
First team training
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We need 3-4 players in for an outlay of 12-15 million.
Wages for the new players should increase the wage bill by around 70-80k per week.
I think this spend would appease fans and greatly improve the quality of the team.
Might even give us a decent run in Europe.
Now is the time to spend, we have been frugal for too long and performances on the pitch have started to suffer.
This would be no high risk strategy given the healthy state of our finances.
Edited by wimthetim, 12 Aug 2014, 11:29 PM.
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CoyleBhoy
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Old, grumpy, in love
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Gonga
12 Aug 2014, 11:17 PM
Here's a thought.

Peter Lawwell no longer sees the Champions League as the most lucrative form of revenue.

With the influx of overly stupidly ridiculous money, even noticeably more than in the past, The EPL and Championship could
keep us comfortable just by buying our better players every few years.

Perhaps we have somewhat become a feeder club for the EPL.

This doesn't concern me really. We need and will find our level.

We can still tilt at windmills but money doesn't just talk, it yells.

Sometimes we'll over achieve, like 1967.
We live for those games/runs.
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Wee Red
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not too serious
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boozebhoy
12 Aug 2014, 11:47 AM
Out on a limb here but they've been more right than wrong over the years. Introduction of the "buy option" is something I agree with. We may not all like it but the Board will not spend or budget with money they don't have. We appear overly reliant on transfer money as an income stream, but we have very limited options when it comes to generating additional income.

I'm as frustrated as everyone else but our position in Scotland will always be a barrier to shopping in certain markets. Player development and prudent transfer policy is defo the slow lane. I don't see any other option.
Loans to buy are prudent, but only if you have an adequate group of players.
We lack experienced talent. You will not get the standard of player we need on loan to buy.
We need variety in our signing policy to suit circumstance.
Heroes have to be paid heroes wages.
Where our scouts and CEO fall down is they have not brought in sufficient young players of true talent that we can retain heroes in the team to keep the fans enthused about Celtic. We should sell some, keep some.
Presently our player quality badly needs a top up, and consideration should be given to relatively expensive seasoned pros being brought in to nurture the developing players.
Stick to the general policy of prudence, but speculate to accumulate. The fans and sponsors require it and demand it.







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Dewey
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Formerly Flatlandbhoy
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murphio
12 Aug 2014, 06:47 PM
Waiting until after the Champions League qualifiers is absurd. If you are going to invest it should be with a view to chasing the Champions League money and recouping the outlay. In fact I'd argue that if we don't make the Champions League it would make more sense not to spend. Why spend money on winning a prize we will win in any case?
As much as it pains me, this makes sense as long as we have enough to win the league. Kills me to say it.

Thanks all for the financial insight. :thumbsup:
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lenobhoy
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Catch some light and it'll be alright
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Dewey
13 Aug 2014, 05:27 AM
murphio
12 Aug 2014, 06:47 PM
Waiting until after the Champions League qualifiers is absurd. If you are going to invest it should be with a view to chasing the Champions League money and recouping the outlay. In fact I'd argue that if we don't make the Champions League it would make more sense not to spend. Why spend money on winning a prize we will win in any case?
As much as it pains me, this makes sense as long as we have enough to win the league. Kills me to say it.

Thanks all for the financial insight. :thumbsup:
I'll tell ye why, because you have a team that has bedded in & you build for the future. So we buy x,y & z player, don't get the CL but win the league. It doesn't matter,the team have become accustomed to playing togther for a year, we build the team & the fans come along to games to see exciting/skillful players & we get more of a chance of qualifying next season for the CL by not scrambling about looking for playersin at the last minute.
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zombieslayer35
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Getting on a bit
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Gonga
12 Aug 2014, 11:17 PM
Here's a thought.

Peter Lawwell no longer sees the Champions League as the most lucrative form of revenue.

With the influx of overly stupidly ridiculous money, even noticeably more than in the past, The EPL and Championship could
keep us comfortable just by buying our better players every few years.

:lol: Once VVD goes we would be lucky if we raised CL income by selling the rest of the team at the same time.
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Busa Bhoy
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First-team captain
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i thought that while we were free of the huns, we'd push ahead and try harder in europe with some better buys. then by the time the rangers arrived in the top league we'd be miles ahead forcing them to spend like mad or accept their position for a while. as it stands they'd need a medium outlay to force a challenge. :nono:

another thought i had was that behind the scenes dd and lawell knew a new league setup (epl or european) was in the offing and we were stockpiling cash so as to mount a challenge when it came about (still hasnt) :lol:
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tonyjaa-csc
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hasnt Lawwell been CEO for 10 years now??
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Clydebank Bhoy
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Not as sad as psychoheart
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kellybhoy
12 Aug 2014, 09:20 PM
wigwam
12 Aug 2014, 09:10 PM
Bertie Peacock
12 Aug 2014, 06:46 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Unless they regard their customers as mugs who will continue to roll up regardless of the performances, which is unfortunately where we may be.
I have a serious question. Reading the posts here would suggest that many people think that we have all this money sitting in the bank, and the Board refuse to spend it. I think many people assume that because we sold one or two players recently we must have millions sitting there waiting to be spent on players. Do we actually have millions of pounds sitting in the bank? This is a genuine question because I have not been reading the accounts lately but I know some people on here are quite knowledgeable about our finances. I do know that we are a public company and therefore cannot hide money from the public, so if we have spare cash then the accounts must show it.
Kind of. Apologies for the crappy formatting of the table below, but it shows our financials for the past 10 years. Here's my take on it:

- At an operating level we tend to make a profit every year, with average profits of £10.65m the last 5 times we've made the group stages of the Champions League
- Our costs are somewhat correlated to turnover (player bonuses for Champions League participation?) meaning we tend to pretty much balance the books even if we don't qualify for CL group stages.
- The exceptionals tend to be mostly negative and consist mainly of amortisation of intangible assets. In simple terms, this means that each player is assigned a value. Now, say that value is £2m and the player has a 4 year contract - the club will value him at, say, £1.5m after 1 year and this reduction of £500k hits the P&L. It's not cash related, and if an asset (player!) is sold for more than his book value then this shows up as a profit. This happened in 2010/11 when we sold McGeady and had total player trading profits of £13.228m that year.
- Even taking into account a fairly conservative view of the value of our playing squad and the resultant impact this has on our amortisation number each year, we still tend to make profit each year, albeitwith some chunky losses (04/05 and 11/12) mainly on write offs. You can see just how conservative we are as the last column below shows the value of our intangible assets which a pretty good proxy for the value of our playing squad.
- Finance costs are pretty small and fairly steady and consist of interest and the dividends on preference shares. Last year the split was £173k interest and £527k preference dividends.
- We only paid £173k in interest last financial year, because we have close to a zero debt position. We may still use debt facilities at certain periods as our cashflows are likely to be very lumpy, but at June 13 we had a net cash postion of £3.76m. Yes, we still have long term loans in place but the cash at hand we had at that point more than outweighed that.

Year ending Turnover Opex Trading Profit Exceptionals Profit before interest and tax Finance costs Pre-tax profit Cash/debt Intangible assets
Jun-2014
Jun-2013 75.82 62.71 13.10 -2.66 10.44 -0.70 9.74 3.76 9.80
Jun-2012 51.34 54.44 -3.10 -3.49 -6.58 -0.79 -7.37 -2.77 7.33
Jun-2011 52.56 52.50 0.06 0.77 0.83 -0.72 0.10 -0.53 10.36
Jun-2010 61.72 57.25 4.46 -5.88 -1.42 -0.71 -2.13 -5.85 13.77
Jun-2009 72.59 61.36 11.23 -8.44 2.79 -0.79 2.00 -1.51 12.15
Jun-2008 72.59 63.73 8.86 -3.36 5.50 -1.06 4.44 -3.52 11.86
Jun-2007 75.24 59.28 15.95 0.31 16.27 -1.23 15.04 -4.99 12.99
Jun-2006 57.41 53.67 3.74 -6.19 -2.45 -1.77 -4.22 -9.09 7.59
Jun-2005 62.17 58.07 4.10 -10.54 -6.44 -2.27 -8.71 -19.33 5.25


In short, yes we do have money in the bank, and we certainly have the ability to borrow to invest in the team. IMO, not doing so in the proper manner just now is even more fiscally irresponsible than going on a reckless spending spree.
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SaMule
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NSFW
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tonyjaa-csc
13 Aug 2014, 02:48 PM
hasnt Lawwell been CEO for 10 years now??
Yep, his testimonial's against Dukla Pumpherston at the end of November :thumbsup:
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CaltonBhoy1967
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Billy McNeill - "Mr Celtic"
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Clydebank Bhoy
13 Aug 2014, 02:53 PM
kellybhoy
12 Aug 2014, 09:20 PM
wigwam
12 Aug 2014, 09:10 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I have a serious question. Reading the posts here would suggest that many people think that we have all this money sitting in the bank, and the Board refuse to spend it. I think many people assume that because we sold one or two players recently we must have millions sitting there waiting to be spent on players. Do we actually have millions of pounds sitting in the bank? This is a genuine question because I have not been reading the accounts lately but I know some people on here are quite knowledgeable about our finances. I do know that we are a public company and therefore cannot hide money from the public, so if we have spare cash then the accounts must show it.
Kind of. Apologies for the crappy formatting of the table below, but it shows our financials for the past 10 years. Here's my take on it:

- At an operating level we tend to make a profit every year, with average profits of £10.65m the last 5 times we've made the group stages of the Champions League
- Our costs are somewhat correlated to turnover (player bonuses for Champions League participation?) meaning we tend to pretty much balance the books even if we don't qualify for CL group stages.
- The exceptionals tend to be mostly negative and consist mainly of amortisation of intangible assets. In simple terms, this means that each player is assigned a value. Now, say that value is £2m and the player has a 4 year contract - the club will value him at, say, £1.5m after 1 year and this reduction of £500k hits the P&L. It's not cash related, and if an asset (player!) is sold for more than his book value then this shows up as a profit. This happened in 2010/11 when we sold McGeady and had total player trading profits of £13.228m that year.
- Even taking into account a fairly conservative view of the value of our playing squad and the resultant impact this has on our amortisation number each year, we still tend to make profit each year, albeitwith some chunky losses (04/05 and 11/12) mainly on write offs. You can see just how conservative we are as the last column below shows the value of our intangible assets which a pretty good proxy for the value of our playing squad.
- Finance costs are pretty small and fairly steady and consist of interest and the dividends on preference shares. Last year the split was £173k interest and £527k preference dividends.
- We only paid £173k in interest last financial year, because we have close to a zero debt position. We may still use debt facilities at certain periods as our cashflows are likely to be very lumpy, but at June 13 we had a net cash postion of £3.76m. Yes, we still have long term loans in place but the cash at hand we had at that point more than outweighed that.

Year endingTurnoverOpexTrading ProfitExceptionalsProfit before interest and taxFinance costsPre-tax profitCash/debtIntangible assets
Jun-2014
Jun-201375.8262.7113.10-2.6610.44-0.709.743.769.80
Jun-201251.3454.44-3.10-3.49-6.58-0.79-7.37-2.777.33
Jun-201152.5652.500.060.770.83-0.720.10-0.5310.36
Jun-201061.7257.254.46-5.88-1.42-0.71-2.13-5.8513.77
Jun-200972.5961.3611.23-8.442.79-0.792.00-1.5112.15
Jun-200872.5963.738.86-3.365.50-1.064.44-3.5211.86
Jun-200775.2459.2815.950.3116.27-1.2315.04-4.9912.99
Jun-200657.4153.673.74-6.19-2.45-1.77-4.22-9.097.59
Jun-200562.1758.074.10-10.54-6.44-2.27-8.71-19.335.25


In short, yes we do have money in the bank, and we certainly have the ability to borrow to invest in the team. IMO, not doing so in the proper manner just now is even more fiscally irresponsible than going on a reckless spending spree.
Fair points CB and points taken the vast majority of the support do not want reckless spending but a bit of controlled investment at a certain level of QUALITY/ENTERTAINMENT (we know top notch is beyond us) which will let the team progress as opposed to this 5 for £2m lucky dip approach which they have got away with up until now.
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