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The Board - general discussion (including Res 12); notes from the AGM
Topic Started: 15 Jul 2014, 12:03 AM (1,414,418 Views)
Hairytoes
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Additionally the SFA had dealings with SFA in Sept 2011 on the monitoring submission of June 2011 and the outcome of that - verbal acceptance of the submission can mean only three things.

Sorry, I'm not getting this bit..
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Fearghas
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fair play to you auldyin for your energy and commitment. :thumbsup:

the battle may have been won but the war is far from over. :potm:
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Dubz
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Hairytoes
9 Dec 2017, 11:46 PM
Additionally the SFA had dealings with SFA in Sept 2011 on the monitoring submission of June 2011 and the outcome of that - verbal acceptance of the submission can mean only three things.

Sorry, I'm not getting this bit..
SFA had dealings with UEFA...
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Hairytoes
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Dubz
10 Dec 2017, 01:41 AM
Hairytoes
9 Dec 2017, 11:46 PM
Additionally the SFA had dealings with SFA in Sept 2011 on the monitoring submission of June 2011 and the outcome of that - verbal acceptance of the submission can mean only three things.

Sorry, I'm not getting this bit..
SFA had dealings with UEFA...
I suspected it might be that..
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tomtheleedstim
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Is there anything to stop a Celtic shareholder, just one of us, suing the SFA for being complicit in a loss of value, a material loss of income?
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mvtommy
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Auldyin
9 Dec 2017, 08:25 PM
van Doesburg
9 Dec 2017, 11:52 AM
Auldyin
9 Dec 2017, 02:13 AM
Looks like the Judicial Review is a no goer.

https://www.sfm.scot/fans-for-judicial-review-counsel-opinion/
That's really disappointing, Auldyin, and I'm guessing you'll be feeling that more than most, given all your work on this issue.

If the judicial review really is a dead-end, are there other routes we can go down?

Either to resolve this particular issue or to force change within the SFA. Or to replace the SFA altogether.
To be honest I/we always had doubts about a JR based on locus. That is the right to bring a case.

Res12 does not suffer from that weakness because Celtic are a member of the SFA and Res12 is a resolution from shareholders who hold shares in an SFA member club. That is why it is still alive in spite of efforts to bury it.

Additionally Res12 has the evidence the SFA have avoided seriously looking since when first presented to them in 2014 verbally then 2015 in correspondence from Res12 lawyer until it became public in Jun 2017 at CW trial.

The Res12 lawyer has written to the Compliance Officer saying we will bring all the correspondence with SFA and UEFA to his attention because it is his and our view that any investigation worth its salt has to take that information into consideration.

Not sure if the follow up has happened but it will and complete transparency is assured because it is all on line to be published if the SFA miss anything.

The only disappointment is that the JR has left the pursuit of justice on Res12 which means more work to make it as difficult as possible for the Compliance Officer to swerve difficult questions and a dependency on Celtic that a JR would have avoided. That does not mean Celtic will not pursue but because they are an SFA member club they face constraints a JR wouldn't.

Apart from that I am led to believe Celtic have had the narrative in 2011 checked by legals before putting it to the SFA who in turn ran it past their QC who advised there was a case to answer.

So it's not done until the Comp Off reports and there has to be a limit to how long that takes because unless something unknown so far turns up then fraud was committed by the Rangers Board in 2011 and the SFA cannot be party to hiding that.

Additionally the SFA had dealings with SFA in Sept 2011 on the monitoring submission of June 2011 and the outcome of that - verbal acceptance of the submission can mean only three things.

a) The SFA lied to UEFA.
b) The SFA told UEFA the truth and they both agreed to ignore as RFC out of Europe.
c) SFA never confirmed the position with HMRC in spite of Sherriff Officers calling at Ibrox a month earlier and repeated a lie in ignorance which is culpable negligence.

The evidence strongly suggests RFC lied to obtain the licence and lied during the two monitoring stages about its status.

What is uncertain is the part SFA played thereafter from Sept 2011 to June 2016 when they finally accepted what had been put to them verbally in 2014 and in writing in 2015. It's all on record😎 and what happens next depends on SFA but the issue cannot be allowed to drag on far into the New Year without some update from SFA to pass on to shareholders.

The fat lady has still to clear her throat.
Many thanks for all the work you guys have put into this. It's much appreciated :thumbsup:
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Timdom come
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mvtommy
10 Dec 2017, 09:45 AM
Auldyin
9 Dec 2017, 08:25 PM
van Doesburg
9 Dec 2017, 11:52 AM
To be honest I/we always had doubts about a JR based on locus. That is the right to bring a case.

Res12 does not suffer from that weakness because Celtic are a member of the SFA and Res12 is a resolution from shareholders who hold shares in an SFA member club. That is why it is still alive in spite of efforts to bury it.

Additionally Res12 has the evidence the SFA have avoided seriously looking since when first presented to them in 2014 verbally then 2015 in correspondence from Res12 lawyer until it became public in Jun 2017 at CW trial.

The Res12 lawyer has written to the Compliance Officer saying we will bring all the correspondence with SFA and UEFA to his attention because it is his and our view that any investigation worth its salt has to take that information into consideration.

Not sure if the follow up has happened but it will and complete transparency is assured because it is all on line to be published if the SFA miss anything.

The only disappointment is that the JR has left the pursuit of justice on Res12 which means more work to make it as difficult as possible for the Compliance Officer to swerve difficult questions and a dependency on Celtic that a JR would have avoided. That does not mean Celtic will not pursue but because they are an SFA member club they face constraints a JR wouldn't.

Apart from that I am led to believe Celtic have had the narrative in 2011 checked by legals before putting it to the SFA who in turn ran it past their QC who advised there was a case to answer.

So it's not done until the Comp Off reports and there has to be a limit to how long that takes because unless something unknown so far turns up then fraud was committed by the Rangers Board in 2011 and the SFA cannot be party to hiding that.

Additionally the SFA had dealings with SFA in Sept 2011 on the monitoring submission of June 2011 and the outcome of that - verbal acceptance of the submission can mean only three things.

a) The SFA lied to UEFA.
b) The SFA told UEFA the truth and they both agreed to ignore as RFC out of Europe.
c) SFA never confirmed the position with HMRC in spite of Sherriff Officers calling at Ibrox a month earlier and repeated a lie in ignorance which is culpable negligence.

The evidence strongly suggests RFC lied to obtain the licence and lied during the two monitoring stages about its status.

What is uncertain is the part SFA played thereafter from Sept 2011 to June 2016 when they finally accepted what had been put to them verbally in 2014 and in writing in 2015. It's all on record😎 and what happens next depends on SFA but the issue cannot be allowed to drag on far into the New Year without some update from SFA to pass on to shareholders.

The fat lady has still to clear her throat.
Many thanks for all the work you guys have put into this. It's much appreciated :thumbsup:
Keep it going Auldyin. You and others involved in this, deserve so much more credit than we can give you on here...
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Auldyin
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Hairytoes
9 Dec 2017, 11:46 PM
Additionally the SFA had dealings with SFA in Sept 2011 on the monitoring submission of June 2011 and the outcome of that - verbal acceptance of the submission can mean only three things.

Sorry, I'm not getting this bit..
The SFA chap half funded by UEFA to see new FFP properly implemented got verbal acceptance in mid Sept 2011 from UEFA of the submission RFC made under Article 66 of FFP in June 2011.

That according to an e mail said "shown as status postponed". The status wasn't postponed and this was after Sherriff Officers called in August so UEFA would know there was reason to question.

So what we're they told? See the options.

The tone of SFA e mail to RFC is to steer them through the questions under Article 67 requiring another Submission at end of September.

That submission not only continued the idea the bill was not overdue it made a claim of payment of £500k towards it that had not been made.

This is why Res12 asked to look at the whole process in 2011 because at the time the SFA's role in June and Sept was highly questionable based on the foregoing.

Since then however reason arose to question the granting in March 2011 based on a CAS ruling in an almost identical case.

In brief the arrival of the actual bill is not necessary for tax owed before 31 Dec to be overdue. Accepting the liability before 31 March did that according to UEFA & confirmed by CAS.

It is the acceptance of the liability that governs that and the CW trial made public what Res12 lawyer had told SFA in July 2015 so SFA HAD to investigate and Celtic were well aware of all this from Dec 2016, but we're advised to wait until CW trial out of the way so the info could be used without prejudice.
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Auldyin
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tomtheleedstim
10 Dec 2017, 09:08 AM
Is there anything to stop a Celtic shareholder, just one of us, suing the SFA for being complicit in a loss of value, a material loss of income?
I'm not sure of that but someone from Grant Thornton who described the liability as potential when it wasn't and RFC whose Chairman A Johnston repeated that position in his statement on Interim Accounts and possibly SFA for ether negligence or covering up a fraud are all in the frame.

That avenue might be the court of last resort if the SFA don't give a clear, honest and accurate explanation and the appetite is there.
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Auldyin
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Hairytoes
10 Dec 2017, 08:20 AM
Dubz
10 Dec 2017, 01:41 AM
Hairytoes
9 Dec 2017, 11:46 PM
Additionally the SFA had dealings with SFA in Sept 2011 on the monitoring submission of June 2011 and the outcome of that - verbal acceptance of the submission can mean only three things.

Sorry, I'm not getting this bit..
SFA had dealings with UEFA...
I suspected it might be that..
It explains Celtic's reluctance to pass Res12. UEFA might have warned them off. After all RFC had just driven a horse and cart through UEFA's shiny new enhanced FFP in its first year.

The whole system is based on trust leaving it wide open to chancers.
Edited by Auldyin, 10 Dec 2017, 05:45 PM.
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Hairytoes
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Great work from auld heid & others, I am pretty much in awe of such persistent high quality work in the face of so many obstacles.

You deserve some kind of official fans recognition.

Truly amazing.
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Auldyin
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Auldyin
10 Dec 2017, 05:42 PM
tomtheleedstim
10 Dec 2017, 09:08 AM
Is there anything to stop a Celtic shareholder, just one of us, suing the SFA for being complicit in a loss of value, a material loss of income?
I'm not sure of that but someone from Grant Thornton who described the liability as potential when it wasn't and RFC whose Chairman A Johnston repeated that position in his statement on Interim Accounts and possibly SFA for ether negligence or covering up a fraud are all in the frame.

That avenue might be the court of last resort if the SFA don't give a clear, honest and accurate explanation and the appetite is there.
Thanks for the posts of appreciation to everyone and thanks to those who have helped make things happen.

The over riding point here is one of principle. The preservation of the integrity that football depends on to make it a sport.

I can understand that a balance between commercial considerations and integrity was part of the dynamic in the 5 Way , but perhaps a price needs to be placed on the cost of loss of integrity and that price needs to be borne by those making the balancing decision.

In short if those making decisions knew there would be a price they or their organisation would have to pay and the means of extracting it existed, would the same weight be given to integrity?

Everything has its price eventually, but if it's on display initially it might just influence those who know they will have to pay it.
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Auldyin
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Evening KDS

 
I know the subject matter is of little or no interest to some but it does no harm to appreciate the factors that have left a number of supporters unhappy at events since 2011.

 

 One more layer has been peeled away on the Genesis of LNS and why Rangers were never charged with dishonesty (or cheating in the vernacular) so the article at

 

 http://celticunderground.net/the-lasting-damage-to-the-integrity-of-scottish-football/

 
if it does nothing else, sets an alternative narrative to the commissioning of LNS which you can refer your bluenose pals to when they claim they did nothing wrong based on LNS.

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BombJack
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It's a very interesting piece Auldyin.
So they had 6 months to get a game plan together?
Incredible.
And even more so that the media doesn't want to look into this.
Well it's not incredible really - they are clearly part of the problem.
Where does this go from now?
What sort of timescales are we looking at for a response from the compliance officer (as if he's going to produce anything remotely controversial)?
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Auldyin
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BombJack
15 Dec 2017, 09:25 PM
It's a very interesting piece Auldyin.
So they had 6 months to get a game plan together?
Incredible.
And even more so that the media doesn't want to look into this.
Well it's not incredible really - they are clearly part of the problem.
Where does this go from now?
What sort of timescales are we looking at for a response from the compliance officer (as if he's going to produce anything remotely controversial)?
It looks like it will be in the New Year. The delay might be an indication of how difficult the task is of avoiding contoversy and retaining his own personal credibility.

It's not as if he has a blank canvas to easily whitewash. Might take a number of coats.
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Smiley
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https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/944151067591364608

Swiss Ramble has a brief look at our finances.
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ronny_is_not_da_man
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Off treasure hunting in Holland
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Smiley
22 Dec 2017, 12:20 PM
https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/944151067591364608

Swiss Ramble has a brief look at our finances.
:o Stop him before he finds out how much we owe the CO-OP bank :ph43r:
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Bodom Bhoy
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.
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Smiley
22 Dec 2017, 12:20 PM
https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/944151067591364608

Swiss Ramble has a brief look at our finances.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Celtic’s profit after tax of £6.9m is the largest in Scotland, followed by Hearts £2.3m. Most clubs break-even (or make small losses), though the exception is Rangers with a £6.7m loss <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CelticFC?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#CelticFC</a> <a href="https://t.co/gGesyoi4Z8">pic.twitter.com/gGesyoi4Z8</a></p>— Swiss Ramble (@SwissRamble) <a href="https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/944151117465833472?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 22, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


:lol:
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CeltFromTheHills
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Smiley
22 Dec 2017, 12:20 PM
https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/944151067591364608

Swiss Ramble has a brief look at our finances.
What jumped out at me in surprise, in the last ten years net spend on players has been £9M.
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dazabhoy67
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Can anyone post the article as I'm work and the twitter link won't work.
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