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The Board - general discussion (including Res 12); notes from the AGM
Topic Started: 15 Jul 2014, 12:03 AM (1,414,435 Views)
tinytim81
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maestromichael
6 Nov 2017, 11:22 PM
We can question individual or even corporate bbc motivations all day long but what the paradise papers clearly show is this world is full of already-rich people who think it's fine not to pay their taxes... it isn't fine, it's shameful (regardless of whether it can be cloaked in legality).

Wasn't ok when the huns did it to cheat their way to titles and isn't ok when DD does it to bolster his own bank balance.
They were breaking the law though. It's not the same thing. I appreciate you don't like the mega rich getting to work their way round things though. For me, I'm just not sure there's any right or wrong answer to something like this. When has someone paid enough? When should they pay more and why etc?

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maestromichael
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henrikisgod
6 Nov 2017, 11:28 PM
maestromichael
6 Nov 2017, 11:22 PM
We can question individual or even corporate bbc motivations all day long but what the paradise papers clearly show is this world is full of already-rich people who think it's fine not to pay their taxes... it isn't fine, it's shameful (regardless of whether it can be cloaked in legality).

Wasn't ok when the huns did it to cheat their way to titles and isn't ok when DD does it to bolster his own bank balance.
The question being asked by most isn’t to do with legality or morality around tax affairs but it is everything to do with the BBC’s blatant attempt to drag our club into the scandal
Totally hear that and of course there'll be plenty in the hallowed halls of the beeb (and elsewhere) rubbing their hands with glee... that's why I made the clear distinction... whatever DD has done he has done for his own self-enrichment, nothing to do with enriching Celtic. But I wouldn't want to see him as an individual excused or any claims that it was ok because it wasn't necessarily unlawful.
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modest mouse
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tinytim81
6 Nov 2017, 11:38 PM
bigkev
6 Nov 2017, 09:26 PM
tinytim81
6 Nov 2017, 09:21 PM
Is Marc Daly accusing Dermot Desmond of breaking the law?
He is trying to appease the orcs.
For me this is a non story then. If he isn't breaking any laws it really shouldn't be part of some arbitrary morality investigation. You might not like the fact billionaires can use their clout to spread money here, there and everywhere to give themselves a smaller tax bill but the reality is, everyone from any walk of life would do the same if they could.

Someone on 30k a year has to give a sizeable wedge of their living to the government. If they could find a legal way to pay less I wouldn't blame them so with that in mind where is the line drawn? How much tax should any one person pay?

As I say it's entirely arbitrary.
"entirely abitrary"

So the practice of the mega rich, hiding their millions in bolt holes to avoid paying what for them would be meagre sums of cash in tax, at a time where there are people suffering at the hands of austerity cuts, people are losing their jobs or scared of losing them, homelessness is up in almost every European country, benefits are being slashed and in certain places, there is an outright humanitarian crisis.

Hardly really a trifling matter in that context is it?

All rules of governance are arbitrary, all political decisions are arbitrary. There's not some untouchable metaphysical law in the ether that governs how we should make decisions.
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henrikisgod
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modest mouse
6 Nov 2017, 11:36 PM
henrikisgod
6 Nov 2017, 11:28 PM
maestromichael
6 Nov 2017, 11:22 PM
We can question individual or even corporate bbc motivations all day long but what the paradise papers clearly show is this world is full of already-rich people who think it's fine not to pay their taxes... it isn't fine, it's shameful (regardless of whether it can be cloaked in legality).

Wasn't ok when the huns did it to cheat their way to titles and isn't ok when DD does it to bolster his own bank balance.
The question being asked by most isn’t to do with legality or morality around tax affairs but it is everything to do with the BBC’s blatant attempt to drag our club into the scandal
Because his connection with Celtic is what makes it a story of greater public interest, and is the reason why he is known to a chunk of the population at large. Even to those who don't know him, his connection to Celtic gives him an identity.

It's not dragging Celtic into the scandal, it's putting a face on a story to give it greater relevance to people.
Sorry but I totally disagree
The biggest scandal in Scottish sporting history has been roundly ignored for over 5 years now and I haven’t seen Mark Daly or anyone else from the BBC doorstep David Murray, Graham Souness, Walter Smith or any other EBT recipient, they even have a few of them on the payroll
If the coverage was even handed I would agree with you though
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Mubo Loravcik
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modest mouse
6 Nov 2017, 11:43 PM
tinytim81
6 Nov 2017, 11:38 PM
bigkev
6 Nov 2017, 09:26 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
For me this is a non story then. If he isn't breaking any laws it really shouldn't be part of some arbitrary morality investigation. You might not like the fact billionaires can use their clout to spread money here, there and everywhere to give themselves a smaller tax bill but the reality is, everyone from any walk of life would do the same if they could.

Someone on 30k a year has to give a sizeable wedge of their living to the government. If they could find a legal way to pay less I wouldn't blame them so with that in mind where is the line drawn? How much tax should any one person pay?

As I say it's entirely arbitrary.
"entirely abitrary"

So the practice of the mega rich, hiding their millions in bolt holes to avoid paying what for them would be meagre sums of cash in tax, at a time where there are people suffering at the hands of austerity cuts, people are losing their jobs or scared of losing them, homelessness is up in almost every European country, benefits are being slashed and in certain places, there is an outright humanitarian crisis.

Hardly really a trifling matter in that context is it?

All rules of governance are arbitrary, all political decisions are arbitrary. There's not some untouchable metaphysical law in the ether that governs how we should make decisions.
:worthy:
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Dannybhoy95
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modest mouse
6 Nov 2017, 11:43 PM
tinytim81
6 Nov 2017, 11:38 PM
bigkev
6 Nov 2017, 09:26 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
For me this is a non story then. If he isn't breaking any laws it really shouldn't be part of some arbitrary morality investigation. You might not like the fact billionaires can use their clout to spread money here, there and everywhere to give themselves a smaller tax bill but the reality is, everyone from any walk of life would do the same if they could.

Someone on 30k a year has to give a sizeable wedge of their living to the government. If they could find a legal way to pay less I wouldn't blame them so with that in mind where is the line drawn? How much tax should any one person pay?

As I say it's entirely arbitrary.
"entirely abitrary"

So the practice of the mega rich, hiding their millions in bolt holes to avoid paying what for them would be meagre sums of cash in tax, at a time where there are people suffering at the hands of austerity cuts, people are losing their jobs or scared of losing them, homelessness is up in almost every European country, benefits are being slashed and in certain places, there is an outright humanitarian crisis.

Hardly really a trifling matter in that context is it?

All rules of governance are arbitrary, all political decisions are arbitrary. There's not some untouchable metaphysical law in the ether that governs how we should make decisions.
Superb.
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Bingo
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Daly did more than most in this country to expose the ebts and their legacy and has every right to go after Desmond on this story. Desmond also looking a bit daft writing to Daly asking if he's a Rangers supporter.
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pads99
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modest mouse
6 Nov 2017, 11:36 PM
henrikisgod
6 Nov 2017, 11:28 PM
maestromichael
6 Nov 2017, 11:22 PM
We can question individual or even corporate bbc motivations all day long but what the paradise papers clearly show is this world is full of already-rich people who think it's fine not to pay their taxes... it isn't fine, it's shameful (regardless of whether it can be cloaked in legality).

Wasn't ok when the huns did it to cheat their way to titles and isn't ok when DD does it to bolster his own bank balance.
The question being asked by most isn’t to do with legality or morality around tax affairs but it is everything to do with the BBC’s blatant attempt to drag our club into the scandal
Because his connection with Celtic is what makes it a story of greater public interest, and is the reason why he is known to a chunk of the population at large. Even to those who don't know him, his connection to Celtic gives him an identity.

It's not dragging Celtic into the scandal, it's putting a face on a story to give it greater relevance to people.
What a load of pish. Sorry if you think this is anything more than an "old firm" story you are a gullible fool. The tenuous link to Celtic is the story here for what? Legal albeit amoral tax avoidance. EBTs were ruled to be tax evasion and not one of the feckers who cheated the tax man or the paying football fan have ever had a microphone stuffed in their face.
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tinytim81
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modest mouse
6 Nov 2017, 11:43 PM
tinytim81
6 Nov 2017, 11:38 PM
bigkev
6 Nov 2017, 09:26 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
For me this is a non story then. If he isn't breaking any laws it really shouldn't be part of some arbitrary morality investigation. You might not like the fact billionaires can use their clout to spread money here, there and everywhere to give themselves a smaller tax bill but the reality is, everyone from any walk of life would do the same if they could.

Someone on 30k a year has to give a sizeable wedge of their living to the government. If they could find a legal way to pay less I wouldn't blame them so with that in mind where is the line drawn? How much tax should any one person pay?

As I say it's entirely arbitrary.
"entirely abitrary"

So the practice of the mega rich, hiding their millions in bolt holes to avoid paying what for them would be meagre sums of cash in tax, at a time where there are people suffering at the hands of austerity cuts, people are losing their jobs or scared of losing them, homelessness is up in almost every European country, benefits are being slashed and in certain places, there is an outright humanitarian crisis.

Hardly really a trifling matter in that context is it?

All rules of governance are arbitrary, all political decisions are arbitrary. There's not some untouchable metaphysical law in the ether that governs how we should make decisions.
So basically, you don't like the fact rich people can get away with paying less through legal tax avoidance schemes. Fair enough, don't have any issue with that. But as you say, the metric standard by which all of this is decided isn't dictated by some intangible higher force.

You might not like Desmond but he isn't breaking any laws of the land no matter how disagreeable that might be to you. I just don't see the point in hounding him in the street for using legal means to hand over less money. I'm not sure where the line is when it comes to this sort of thing. How much is enough? Fifty percent, sixty, ninety?

Maybe your wrath should be aimed at the peope that allow these loopholes to exist.
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ronny_is_not_da_man
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modest mouse
6 Nov 2017, 11:36 PM
henrikisgod
6 Nov 2017, 11:28 PM
maestromichael
6 Nov 2017, 11:22 PM
We can question individual or even corporate bbc motivations all day long but what the paradise papers clearly show is this world is full of already-rich people who think it's fine not to pay their taxes... it isn't fine, it's shameful (regardless of whether it can be cloaked in legality).

Wasn't ok when the huns did it to cheat their way to titles and isn't ok when DD does it to bolster his own bank balance.
The question being asked by most isn’t to do with legality or morality around tax affairs but it is everything to do with the BBC’s blatant attempt to drag our club into the scandal
Because his connection with Celtic is what makes it a story of greater public interest, and is the reason why he is known to a chunk of the population at large. Even to those who don't know him, his connection to Celtic gives him an identity.

It's not dragging Celtic into the scandal, it's putting a face on a story to give it greater relevance to people.
Bullshampoo. It's dragging us into to stir up trouble. Absolutely eff all to do with us.
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modest mouse
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tinytim81
6 Nov 2017, 11:59 PM
modest mouse
6 Nov 2017, 11:43 PM
tinytim81
6 Nov 2017, 11:38 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
"entirely abitrary"

So the practice of the mega rich, hiding their millions in bolt holes to avoid paying what for them would be meagre sums of cash in tax, at a time where there are people suffering at the hands of austerity cuts, people are losing their jobs or scared of losing them, homelessness is up in almost every European country, benefits are being slashed and in certain places, there is an outright humanitarian crisis.

Hardly really a trifling matter in that context is it?

All rules of governance are arbitrary, all political decisions are arbitrary. There's not some untouchable metaphysical law in the ether that governs how we should make decisions.
So basically, you don't like the fact rich people can get away with paying less through legal tax avoidance schemes. Fair enough, don't have any issue with that. But as you say, the metric standard by which all of this is decided isn't dictated by some intangible higher force.

You might not like Desmond but he isn't breaking any laws of the land no matter how disagreeable that might be to you. I just don't see the point in hounding him in the street for using legal means to hand over less money. I'm not sure where the line is when it comes to this sort of thing. How much is enough? Fifty percent, sixty, ninety?

Maybe your wrath should be aimed at the peope that allow these loopholes to exist.
It’s easy not to break any laws when you can exert control -directly or indirectly - over those making the laws. Do you think it’s some magic coincidence that these loopholes exist in order for ppl like DD and others to take advantage of?

‘You may not like Desmond’

Never met the guy.
Edited by modest mouse, 7 Nov 2017, 12:32 AM.
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redbhoy
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It's a relevant story to pursue. It's not relevant for it to appear on the BBC sports pages. It has absolutely nothing to do with Celtic FC.
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maestromichael
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modest mouse
7 Nov 2017, 12:27 AM
tinytim81
6 Nov 2017, 11:59 PM
modest mouse
6 Nov 2017, 11:43 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
So basically, you don't like the fact rich people can get away with paying less through legal tax avoidance schemes. Fair enough, don't have any issue with that. But as you say, the metric standard by which all of this is decided isn't dictated by some intangible higher force.

You might not like Desmond but he isn't breaking any laws of the land no matter how disagreeable that might be to you. I just don't see the point in hounding him in the street for using legal means to hand over less money. I'm not sure where the line is when it comes to this sort of thing. How much is enough? Fifty percent, sixty, ninety?

Maybe your wrath should be aimed at the peope that allow these loopholes to exist.
It’s easy not to break any laws when you can exert control -directly or indirectly - over those making the laws. Do you think it’s some magic coincidence that these loopholes exist in order for ppl like DD and others to take advantage of?

‘You may not like Desmond’

Never met the guy.
Few quick points and then I'll shut my trap:

Think we can all agree there are those who would love to use this as a stick to beat Celtic with. It isn't and anyone playing that game will be seen for exactly what they are... and let's be honest we all know who they are.

This, however, is not a non-story. It is an important story that says much about the society we are and the establishment that oversees the rules by which we live. The revelations from these papers are entirely in the public interest. DD is but one of the individuals being named and this is also in the public interest. That he is our main shareholder is Imo a further point of interest and any Scottish journalists failing to mention that would be negligent by way of ommission. On the whole I'm not a fan of doorstepping but DD was apparently asked to comment on 5 previous occasions and declined. Almost all of the individuals on the main panorama who similarly declined were similarly doorstepped so he was hardly singled out.

The question of legality is an open one. When that lot used ebts these schemes were not illegal. It was their use of ebts under false pretext to evade paying tax that was illegal and HMRC had to endure 4 separate legal procedures to prove this. Currently no-one can accuse DD et al of illegality because there has been no challenge but that does not preclude a challenge taking place and them being ruled illegal down the line.

Finally, it has been suggested that our anger should be directed at those who leave these 'loopholes' and not those who merely exploit them. As modest has said and as the panorama show evidenced they are not distinct entities but rather all part of the same unvirtuous circle. In one example the lawyers and accountants who exploit these loopholes were in collusion with the legislature responsible for setting them out in law. It seems you really can make it up. The estimate for total tax unpaid by way of these schemes is 600 billion. As a last examplee this idea of 50 or 60% tax is wide of the mark. Apple paid just over 3% on total non-US earnings. I can't say what DD pays but if it's above 20% in total he's not half the businessman I suspect.
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obi wan wanyama
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tinytim81
6 Nov 2017, 11:38 PM
bigkev
6 Nov 2017, 09:26 PM
tinytim81
6 Nov 2017, 09:21 PM
Is Marc Daly accusing Dermot Desmond of breaking the law?
He is trying to appease the orcs.
For me this is a non story then. If he isn't breaking any laws it really shouldn't be part of some arbitrary morality investigation. You might not like the fact billionaires can use their clout to spread money here, there and everywhere to give themselves a smaller tax bill but the reality is, everyone from any walk of life would do the same if they could.

Someone on 30k a year has to give a sizeable wedge of their living to the government. If they could find a legal way to pay less I wouldn't blame them so with that in mind where is the line drawn? How much tax should any one person pay?

As I say it's entirely arbitrary.
Average Joe does avoid tax through gift aid, his pension and ignoring IHT due.

I'd guess if there was a survey to find out what % of those who earn cash income declare it all then the % would be low.
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tinytim81
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modest mouse
7 Nov 2017, 12:27 AM
tinytim81
6 Nov 2017, 11:59 PM
modest mouse
6 Nov 2017, 11:43 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
So basically, you don't like the fact rich people can get away with paying less through legal tax avoidance schemes. Fair enough, don't have any issue with that. But as you say, the metric standard by which all of this is decided isn't dictated by some intangible higher force.

You might not like Desmond but he isn't breaking any laws of the land no matter how disagreeable that might be to you. I just don't see the point in hounding him in the street for using legal means to hand over less money. I'm not sure where the line is when it comes to this sort of thing. How much is enough? Fifty percent, sixty, ninety?

Maybe your wrath should be aimed at the peope that allow these loopholes to exist.
It’s easy not to break any laws when you can exert control -directly or indirectly - over those making the laws. Do you think it’s some magic coincidence that these loopholes exist in order for ppl like DD and others to take advantage of?

‘You may not like Desmond’

Never met the guy.
I have no idea. I just don't see the point in getting angry at someone for using legal means to avoid tax. If the manner in which they can do so is unfair then attack the system. Don't stick a camera in their face and hound them in the street for obeying the law.
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Mickeybhoy84
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Desmond is an investment banker. It’s hardly headline news that he’ll have set his businesses up in such a way as to avoid as much tax as legally possible. The reason it’s a big story with the Queen or various celebrities is that they’re often portrayed as holier than thou paragons of virtue. Desmond is a capitalist acting like a capitalist.

If Rangers weren’t caught regularly breaking tax laws, or if Sevco didn’t have a man with convictions for tax evasion, the media wouldn’t have bothered with this. It’s all an attempt to try and make us look as bad as them.
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Brendan67
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Many on here were lapping Daly up when he was looking into EBTs and Craig Whyte. Yet he has the cheek to look at Desmond and it's simply a conspiracy aimed at Celtic. It's a major story Nationwide with certain famous people, Desmond included.

There's no agenda here
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jimbhoy0507
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Brendan67
7 Nov 2017, 09:56 AM
Many on here were lapping Daly up when he was looking into EBTs and Craig Whyte. Yet he has the cheek to look at Desmond and it's simply a conspiracy aimed at Celtic. It's a major story Nationwide with certain famous people, Desmond included.

There's no agenda here
Struggle to see how its a major uk story non uk citizen bumps the swiss tax system. I really dont think that was the big story yesterday.
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tenerifetim
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redbhoy
7 Nov 2017, 12:49 AM
It's a relevant story to pursue. It's not relevant for it to appear on the BBC sports pages. It has absolutely nothing to do with Celtic FC.
I can agree that the Tax avoidance is a story separate from Celtic FC and to do with DD's Business Operations but he fell into trap a bit with the opening line of his letter "Are you a Rangers Supporter" - Mark Daly has rattled a few peoples cages over the years on various stories , this weeks flavour is Tax Dodgers (obviously Corbyn had wind of this when he opened up PMQ's last week on IOM Jets ) .
What's really hypocritical , especially from BBC Scotland , is the plethora of wheezes & tax dodges in Scottish Football that have never been chased down by doorstepping - they've even invited spme of the biggest culprits onto their couches & are paid mouthpieces !
Most of us use tax avoidance in our daily lives to minimise tax, claiming expenses, putting money into a pension fund , Covenants to Church,Charitable donations - It's just that people like DD do it on a Grand Scale & skate closer to the edge !
They have their negative Squirrel for this week to avoid the disastrous Accounts in Govan , if DD feels he has been mis-represented I'm sure his legal team will pursue - we might even get a Centre Half out of it ! :ph43r:
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MBhoy1888
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Brendan67
7 Nov 2017, 09:56 AM
Many on here were lapping Daly up when he was looking into EBTs and Craig Whyte. Yet he has the cheek to look at Desmond and it's simply a conspiracy aimed at Celtic. It's a major story Nationwide with certain famous people, Desmond included.

There's no agenda here
Yep. :thumbsup:
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