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The Board - general discussion (including Res 12); notes from the AGM
Topic Started: 15 Jul 2014, 12:03 AM (1,414,584 Views)
murphio
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Could start a row in an empty room
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LambertandButler
9 Sep 2016, 12:01 PM
There's no excuse for them. If you need additional staff, then give people contracts with regular hours. Or at least give them the option.
:ponder: They are simply casual employees surely? If you need 10 more staff for a bigger game do you employ them all even when you don't need them 'regularly'? If I own a restaurant and I need more staff on busy periods like Christmas etc do I have to employ them all year round regardless? Sounds utterly ridiculous to me and not comparable to that practiced by the likes of Sports Direct.
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stevie21
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fatboab
9 Sep 2016, 01:20 PM
stevie21
9 Sep 2016, 01:11 PM
fatboab
9 Sep 2016, 11:55 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I thought we contracted that out, so that they're not our employees?
we contract out the stalls, but the retail and the likes of private boxes and the No 7 restaurant have Match Day staff which the club control.
Good point, I hadn't thought of them. I was only thinking about the half time bovril sellers, I assumed that they were employed by a catering company.
Either way, there's not really any contract that you can award someone who works for you once a fortnight, other than one with very few & variable hours so for those guys there might be no other option than a zero hours contract.
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greenjedi
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stevie21
9 Sep 2016, 05:33 PM
fatboab
9 Sep 2016, 01:20 PM
stevie21
9 Sep 2016, 01:11 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
we contract out the stalls, but the retail and the likes of private boxes and the No 7 restaurant have Match Day staff which the club control.
Good point, I hadn't thought of them. I was only thinking about the half time bovril sellers, I assumed that they were employed by a catering company.
Either way, there's not really any contract that you can award someone who works for you once a fortnight, other than one with very few & variable hours so for those guys there might be no other option than a zero hours contract.
x amount of hours every match day I suppose is the only way
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fatboab
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Just before the Dawn

greenjedi
9 Sep 2016, 05:35 PM
stevie21
9 Sep 2016, 05:33 PM
fatboab
9 Sep 2016, 01:20 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Good point, I hadn't thought of them. I was only thinking about the half time bovril sellers, I assumed that they were employed by a catering company.
Either way, there's not really any contract that you can award someone who works for you once a fortnight, other than one with very few & variable hours so for those guys there might be no other option than a zero hours contract.
x amount of hours every match day I suppose is the only way
The problem is that crowds vary and staff demands vary accordingly. For tomorrow, we will need far more staff than we will for say a midweek cup tie v Alloa. It's not perfect, but Zero Hours contracts is probably the only way we can retain these staff.
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mick405
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fatboab
9 Sep 2016, 11:55 AM
sevilliano
9 Sep 2016, 11:52 AM
wtf - whoever sanctioned zero hours contracts at Celtic should be put on zero hours

I'm not making a case for Zero Hour Contracts , but I think Celtic use them primarily for additional match day staff in catering and Retail.
That's not exactly correct.

Catering etc would be on 'casual' contracts with no set amount of hours. I know of folk who are in what I would say would be good, decent paying full time jobs who until recently were on zero hour contracts.
Edited by mick405, 9 Sep 2016, 07:36 PM.
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LambertandButler
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murphio
9 Sep 2016, 05:05 PM
LambertandButler
9 Sep 2016, 12:01 PM
There's no excuse for them. If you need additional staff, then give people contracts with regular hours. Or at least give them the option.
:ponder: They are simply casual employees surely? If you need 10 more staff for a bigger game do you employ them all even when you don't need them 'regularly'? If I own a restaurant and I need more staff on busy periods like Christmas etc do I have to employ them all year round regardless? Sounds utterly ridiculous to me and not comparable to that practiced by the likes of Sports Direct.
No, you give people regular hours for a fixed term - over the Xmas period in your case. Shops do it all the time. It's not complicated.

As I say, for some people it might suit them not to be 'committed' to regular hours. But this is fairly rare. In the majority of cases, these contracts are used to keep people in insecure and low paid work.

People should be offered regular hours, even if it is a fixed term. So, for instance, I'd be fine with the club saying 'OK, we'll give you 8 hours a week until Christmas, and then we'll see how we think attendances are going to go, if we're still in Europe' and so on.

Mandatory zero hours contracts keep people in poverty and we shouldn't be a part of it.
Edited by LambertandButler, 9 Sep 2016, 11:07 PM.
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Kingslim
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LambertandButler
9 Sep 2016, 11:06 PM
murphio
9 Sep 2016, 05:05 PM
LambertandButler
9 Sep 2016, 12:01 PM
There's no excuse for them. If you need additional staff, then give people contracts with regular hours. Or at least give them the option.
:ponder: They are simply casual employees surely? If you need 10 more staff for a bigger game do you employ them all even when you don't need them 'regularly'? If I own a restaurant and I need more staff on busy periods like Christmas etc do I have to employ them all year round regardless? Sounds utterly ridiculous to me and not comparable to that practiced by the likes of Sports Direct.
No, you give people regular hours for a fixed term - over the Xmas period in your case. Shops do it all the time. It's not complicated.

As I say, for some people it might suit them not to be 'committed' to regular hours. But this is fairly rare. In the majority of cases, these contracts are used to keep people in insecure and low paid work.

People should be offered regular hours, even if it is a fixed term. So, for instance, I'd be fine with the club saying 'OK, we'll give you 8 hours a week until Christmas, and then we'll see how we think attendances are going to go, if we're still in Europe' and so on.

Mandatory zero hours contracts keep people in poverty and we shouldn't be a part of it.
That's not his point though and to be honest you're wanting to hire people out of empathy rather than necessity.
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LambertandButler
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The Greek Finance Minister
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Kingslim
9 Sep 2016, 11:12 PM
LambertandButler
9 Sep 2016, 11:06 PM
murphio
9 Sep 2016, 05:05 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
No, you give people regular hours for a fixed term - over the Xmas period in your case. Shops do it all the time. It's not complicated.

As I say, for some people it might suit them not to be 'committed' to regular hours. But this is fairly rare. In the majority of cases, these contracts are used to keep people in insecure and low paid work.

People should be offered regular hours, even if it is a fixed term. So, for instance, I'd be fine with the club saying 'OK, we'll give you 8 hours a week until Christmas, and then we'll see how we think attendances are going to go, if we're still in Europe' and so on.

Mandatory zero hours contracts keep people in poverty and we shouldn't be a part of it.
That's not his point though and to be honest you're wanting to hire people out of empathy rather than necessity.
Our club was formed out of empathy.

But apart from that, if you want to take a purely 'business' approach, these contracts are bad news because they are so controversial and bring such bad PR that even Mike Ashley has had to stop using them.

As I say, there are ways to deal with ups and downs in demand for staff that don't involve these contracts. It doesn't mean giving everyone a permanent full time job.

How do you think restaurants and bars which are dead during the week and heaving on the weekend cope? You just need to manage your staff.
Edited by LambertandButler, 9 Sep 2016, 11:18 PM.
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jamiebhoy76
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They'll use agency staff who are employed and paid by the agency thus avoiding any need for zero hour contracts.
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Big Drew
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Kingslim
9 Sep 2016, 11:12 PM
LambertandButler
9 Sep 2016, 11:06 PM
murphio
9 Sep 2016, 05:05 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
No, you give people regular hours for a fixed term - over the Xmas period in your case. Shops do it all the time. It's not complicated.

As I say, for some people it might suit them not to be 'committed' to regular hours. But this is fairly rare. In the majority of cases, these contracts are used to keep people in insecure and low paid work.

People should be offered regular hours, even if it is a fixed term. So, for instance, I'd be fine with the club saying 'OK, we'll give you 8 hours a week until Christmas, and then we'll see how we think attendances are going to go, if we're still in Europe' and so on.

Mandatory zero hours contracts keep people in poverty and we shouldn't be a part of it.
That's not his point though and to be honest you're wanting to hire people out of empathy rather than necessity.
FFS. How much does Celtic save by effing over low paid staff? Disappointing that some fans think this is acceptable.
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murphio
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Could start a row in an empty room
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LambertandButler
9 Sep 2016, 11:17 PM
Kingslim
9 Sep 2016, 11:12 PM
LambertandButler
9 Sep 2016, 11:06 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
That's not his point though and to be honest you're wanting to hire people out of empathy rather than necessity.
Our club was formed out of empathy.

But apart from that, if you want to take a purely 'business' approach, these contracts are bad news because they are so controversial and bring such bad PR that even Mike Ashley has had to stop using them.

As I say, there are ways to deal with ups and downs in demand for staff that don't involve these contracts. It doesn't mean giving everyone a permanent full time job.

How do you think restaurants and bars which are dead during the week and heaving on the weekend cope? You just need to manage your staff.
Have you actually worked in an industry where business can be booming one day and dead the next? I know I have. The catering sector is a classic example of an industry which requires a core level of staff and absolutely depends on a top up during busy periods. How would your guaranteed contract work in an industry which could need 100 employess one week and five the next?
It is utterly absurd to demand these businesses permanently employ more 'top up' (see casual) staff than are actually needed as some kind of moral obligation. I'm guessing you work for the Civil Service because any kind of 'business' which employs and pays staff they don't actually need won't be long going under with all of its employees joining the dole queue. There is a massive difference between companies like Sports Direct putting the squeeze on people they actually need to Celtic (or any other employer) not offering work to employees they simply don't have.
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Drinkywhiskers
Occasional Substitute
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Corky Buczek
8 Sep 2016, 08:10 PM
Board making a rod for it own back with zero hours contracts

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/14730335.Union_to_tackle_Celtic_over_zero_hours_contracts/?ref=rss

Well if we're more than just a club then its time to pay the living wage and give staff decent contracts and not this nonsense.
OT but how the eff do you get employed as a journalist and not know the difference between affect and effect? I feel like everytime I read a news article, the grammar, structure and spelling is shampoo these days.

Anyway back on topic, IMO, zero hour contracts can be a necessary evil in retail/food and beverage jobs.

I've worked as a hotel conference and events waitress on 0 hour. If they booked an event and their usual waiting staff numbers wouldn't cover it - I got a call. If they didn't have an event booked - no phone call. It sucked for me but as a business there is no point in having say 30% extra staff standing around doing nothing on the nights you have no events. (Also, I say it sucked but I was in FT education and doing ok money wise. I looked elsewhere when I started needing something more substantial.)

I also worked for a big department store on a zero hour contract for about 3 of the 5 years I worked there. I was on NMW. I was available full time having finished FT education and, the vast majority of the time, I worked full time hours. THAT is being shafted by a zero hour contract. The company had the need for 40hrs a week to be covered, it paid me for the 40hrs I worked, but I wasn't entitled to any holiday pay on a 0 hour contract.

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OverAndOver
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Considering retirement
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fatboab
9 Sep 2016, 06:04 PM
greenjedi
9 Sep 2016, 05:35 PM
stevie21
9 Sep 2016, 05:33 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
x amount of hours every match day I suppose is the only way
The problem is that crowds vary and staff demands vary accordingly. For tomorrow, we will need far more staff than we will for say a midweek cup tie v Alloa. It's not perfect, but Zero Hours contracts is probably the only way we can retain these staff.
That would always have been the problem though going through the 60,'s 70's 80's etc etc before zero hour contracts were even heard of


so how did we manage it then :ponder:
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LambertandButler
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murphio
10 Sep 2016, 02:54 AM
LambertandButler
9 Sep 2016, 11:17 PM
Kingslim
9 Sep 2016, 11:12 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Our club was formed out of empathy.

But apart from that, if you want to take a purely 'business' approach, these contracts are bad news because they are so controversial and bring such bad PR that even Mike Ashley has had to stop using them.

As I say, there are ways to deal with ups and downs in demand for staff that don't involve these contracts. It doesn't mean giving everyone a permanent full time job.

How do you think restaurants and bars which are dead during the week and heaving on the weekend cope? You just need to manage your staff.
Have you actually worked in an industry where business can be booming one day and dead the next? I know I have. The catering sector is a classic example of an industry which requires a core level of staff and absolutely depends on a top up during busy periods. How would your guaranteed contract work in an industry which could need 100 employess one week and five the next?
It is utterly absurd to demand these businesses permanently employ more 'top up' (see casual) staff than are actually needed as some kind of moral obligation. I'm guessing you work for the Civil Service because any kind of 'business' which employs and pays staff they don't actually need won't be long going under with all of its employees joining the dole queue. There is a massive difference between companies like Sports Direct putting the squeeze on people they actually need to Celtic (or any other employer) not offering work to employees they simply don't have.
Mate, I have a zero hours contract myself in one of my jobs. So, yeah, I know what they're about.

But you're obviously fine with it. I hope most Celtic supporters won't be.

Let's see.
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murphio
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Could start a row in an empty room
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LambertandButler
10 Sep 2016, 07:53 AM
murphio
10 Sep 2016, 02:54 AM
LambertandButler
9 Sep 2016, 11:17 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Have you actually worked in an industry where business can be booming one day and dead the next? I know I have. The catering sector is a classic example of an industry which requires a core level of staff and absolutely depends on a top up during busy periods. How would your guaranteed contract work in an industry which could need 100 employess one week and five the next?
It is utterly absurd to demand these businesses permanently employ more 'top up' (see casual) staff than are actually needed as some kind of moral obligation. I'm guessing you work for the Civil Service because any kind of 'business' which employs and pays staff they don't actually need won't be long going under with all of its employees joining the dole queue. There is a massive difference between companies like Sports Direct putting the squeeze on people they actually need to Celtic (or any other employer) not offering work to employees they simply don't have.
Mate, I have a zero hours contract myself in one of my jobs. So, yeah, I know what they're about.

But you're obviously fine with it. I hope most Celtic supporters won't be.

Let's see.
Please don't misrepresent my position; I'm 'fine' with businesses using casual employees to meet demand during busy periods. I am not 'fine' with people being exploited. As usual, it's all about context and individual circumstances. It is absolutely absurd to demand that any business hire people they don't need. I myself worked for a few years as a freelance journalist - no guaranteed income, no holiday pay, no sickness benefits etc etc. And I have absolutely no problem with it because it generated a wage, I learned my trade and it put me in a position where I was in the frame for full time employment when it became available. There are industries and businesses which depend on casual employees - and Celtic would certainly be one of them.
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LambertandButler
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The Greek Finance Minister
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murphio
10 Sep 2016, 08:31 AM
LambertandButler
10 Sep 2016, 07:53 AM
murphio
10 Sep 2016, 02:54 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Mate, I have a zero hours contract myself in one of my jobs. So, yeah, I know what they're about.

But you're obviously fine with it. I hope most Celtic supporters won't be.

Let's see.
Please don't misrepresent my position; I'm 'fine' with businesses using casual employees to meet demand during busy periods. I am not 'fine' with people being exploited. As usual, it's all about context and individual circumstances. It is absolutely absurd to demand that any business hire people they don't need. I myself worked for a few years as a freelance journalist - no guaranteed income, no holiday pay, no sickness benefits etc etc. And I have absolutely no problem with it because it generated a wage, I learned my trade and it put me in a position where I was in the frame for full time employment when it became available. There are industries and businesses which depend on casual employees - and Celtic would certainly be one of them.
Think we're talking at cross purposes now.

I never misrepresented your position. You're happy with the club offering these contracts as a business necessity. I'm not. It's as simple as that. If offering people regular hours costs the club a few extra grand a year, they should do it.
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Baillieston Born, Celtic Bred
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Drinkywhiskers
10 Sep 2016, 04:06 AM
Corky Buczek
8 Sep 2016, 08:10 PM
Board making a rod for it own back with zero hours contracts

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/14730335.Union_to_tackle_Celtic_over_zero_hours_contracts/?ref=rss

Well if we're more than just a club then its time to pay the living wage and give staff decent contracts and not this nonsense.
OT but how the eff do you get employed as a journalist and not know the difference between affect and effect? I feel like everytime I read a news article, the grammar, structure and spelling is shampoo these days.

Anyway back on topic, IMO, zero hour contracts can be a necessary evil in retail/food and beverage jobs.

I've worked as a hotel conference and events waitress on 0 hour. If they booked an event and their usual waiting staff numbers wouldn't cover it - I got a call. If they didn't have an event booked - no phone call. It sucked for me but as a business there is no point in having say 30% extra staff standing around doing nothing on the nights you have no events. (Also, I say it sucked but I was in FT education and doing ok money wise. I looked elsewhere when I started needing something more substantial.)

I also worked for a big department store on a zero hour contract for about 3 of the 5 years I worked there. I was on NMW. I was available full time having finished FT education and, the vast majority of the time, I worked full time hours. THAT is being shafted by a zero hour contract. The company had the need for 40hrs a week to be covered, it paid me for the 40hrs I worked, but I wasn't entitled to any holiday pay on a 0 hour contract.[\b]

You've hit the nail on the head here. When I was a student, I worked in pubs, clubs, hotels..... Sometimes over 80 hours a week, sometimes 8..... I needed the cash but thanks to parents, I had a roof over my head and food on the table.

Zero hours suited me cos I could turn down extra hours if I had something else on or had a paper due in..... But I got no holiday pay, no sick pay and no other benefits. The living wage is set at a level which assumes that you will be entitled to these things and is set at a level where you will, even if you spend your whole working life on it, have a minimum standard of life, not just cash but paid holidays and sick and will have earned a full state pension at the end of it. Don't ever put Celtic employing a handful of students on match days to what Sports Direct do.
Being realistic, would those sitting on a high horse over this be happy to see Celtic entering into permanent employment contracts with an 18 year old student and then have them realise that they could phone in sick if they didn't feel up to it, but still get paid? How many concession stands do you think would be open on match day then?
Employment law is very complex, as is contract law. Whilst I would like to see Celtic utilise the Living Wage framework for all, the fact is that very few Celtic match day employees are trying to support a family on the few hours a fortnight available. It's an extra job. Let's focus our efforts on fights we can win. Ask the board how many zero-hour contracts they use in their high street retail....
Edited by Baillieston Born, Celtic Bred, 10 Sep 2016, 09:33 AM.
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nowonder
Retired and now a BT Sports pundit
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Baillieston Born, Celtic Bred
10 Sep 2016, 09:32 AM
Drinkywhiskers
10 Sep 2016, 04:06 AM
Corky Buczek
8 Sep 2016, 08:10 PM
Board making a rod for it own back with zero hours contracts

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/14730335.Union_to_tackle_Celtic_over_zero_hours_contracts/?ref=rss

Well if we're more than just a club then its time to pay the living wage and give staff decent contracts and not this nonsense.
OT but how the eff do you get employed as a journalist and not know the difference between affect and effect? I feel like everytime I read a news article, the grammar, structure and spelling is shampoo these days.

Anyway back on topic, IMO, zero hour contracts can be a necessary evil in retail/food and beverage jobs.

I've worked as a hotel conference and events waitress on 0 hour. If they booked an event and their usual waiting staff numbers wouldn't cover it - I got a call. If they didn't have an event booked - no phone call. It sucked for me but as a business there is no point in having say 30% extra staff standing around doing nothing on the nights you have no events. (Also, I say it sucked but I was in FT education and doing ok money wise. I looked elsewhere when I started needing something more substantial.)

I also worked for a big department store on a zero hour contract for about 3 of the 5 years I worked there. I was on NMW. I was available full time having finished FT education and, the vast majority of the time, I worked full time hours. THAT is being shafted by a zero hour contract. The company had the need for 40hrs a week to be covered, it paid me for the 40hrs I worked, but I wasn't entitled to any holiday pay on a 0 hour contract.[\b]

You've hit the nail on the head here. When I was a student, I worked in pubs, clubs, hotels..... Sometimes over 80 hours a week, sometimes 8..... I needed the cash but thanks to parents, I had a roof over my head and food on the table.

Zero hours suited me cos I could turn down extra hours if I had something else on or had a paper due in..... But I got no holiday pay, no sick pay and no other benefits. The living wage is set at a level which assumes that you will be entitled to these things and is set at a level where you will, even if you spend your whole working life on it, have a minimum standard of life, not just cash but paid holidays and sick and will have earned a full state pension at the end of it. Don't ever put Celtic employing a handful of students on match days to what Sports Direct do.
Being realistic, would those sitting on a high horse over this be happy to see Celtic entering into permanent employment contracts with an 18 year old student and then have them realise that they could phone in sick if they didn't feel up to it, but still get paid? How many concession stands do you think would be open on match day then?
Employment law is very complex, as is contract law. Whilst I would like to see Celtic utilise the Living Wage framework for all, the fact is that very few Celtic match day employees are trying to support a family on the few hours a fortnight available. It's an extra job. Let's focus our efforts on fights we can win. Ask the board how many zero-hour contracts they use in their high street retail....
That's a good post on the subject.Fighting on behalf of high street retail employees isn't very sexy though,how would it work on a banner :ponder:
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murphio
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LambertandButler
10 Sep 2016, 08:46 AM
I never misrepresented your position. You're happy with the club offering these contracts as a business necessity. I'm not.
I never said I was happy though - that's why you are misrepresenting me. I have no idea of the exact details of these contracts to make any judgement on them. I'm simply saying that you can't tar all these contracts with the same brush. Not all casual employment arrangements are exploitative.
Edited by murphio, 10 Sep 2016, 10:23 AM.
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LambertandButler
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Quote:
 
Not all casual employment arrangements are exploitative.


And I never said they were.

I said people should be offered regular hours. If people prefer not to be obligated to regular hours, give them zero hours. It's the lack of an option that is the problem.
Edited by LambertandButler, 10 Sep 2016, 10:34 AM.
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