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The Board - general discussion (including Res 12); notes from the AGM
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Topic Started: 15 Jul 2014, 12:03 AM (1,414,586 Views)
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mizpah
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1 Sep 2016, 01:42 PM
Post #8721
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- ChiliPepper
- 1 Sep 2016, 12:16 PM
- fatboab
- 1 Sep 2016, 12:14 PM
- Ned Rise
- 1 Sep 2016, 10:30 AM
Rodgers took a chance in coming to Scottish football. He wanted someone in the middle of the park as they lynchpin to how he wants his team to play. That person never arrived. He now has to work a bit of magic with someone already on the books, but his job has become harder when he's about to face some of his toughest tests in football.
I understand we need a midfielder, and it would unquestionably improve us, but Rodgers standing in the game will not be determined by what he achieves or fails to achieve against Barcelona or Man City. He'll have known that the CL would throw up teams like this that would be favourites to skelp us. Neil Lennon achieved a miracle in beating Barcelona and look where it got him. Next year will be the year we really start to enjoy Rodger's influence, and by this time next season, I expect us to be watching a radically different midfield.
That's assuming Rodgers will be here next season... Rodgers is not a bedwetter like so many of our support
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Corky Buczek
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1 Sep 2016, 02:00 PM
Post #8722
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- mizpah
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Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
That's assuming Rodgers will be here next season...
Rodgers is not a bedwetter like so many of our support You said in another thread that is we had signed Sinclair and dembele last night we'd all be raving about it.
As another poster pointed out to you, we would be facing the Europa League without the goals they brought with them by signing them earlier in the window.
We have a central midfield who couldn't cut last year in the aforesaid Europa League nor against Sevco last April. Yet here they are as we face without doubt our toughest ever CL group.
Are we in a better position than we were in May ? Definitely. Could we have done better in the past week ? Yes without doubt and given the resources we have its very disappointing we didn't.
Hardly bedwetting.
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hoops_2710
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1 Sep 2016, 02:29 PM
Post #8723
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- Adam Smith 11
- 1 Sep 2016, 12:54 PM
- hoops_2710
- 1 Sep 2016, 11:26 AM
Let's be realistic, what difference will a £5m player make to our CL hopes? We might only get slightly embarrassed instead of completely embarrassed? We will finish with - 4GD instead of - 7GD? We have next to no chance of getting out of this group and spending multi millions isn't going to be a good business move.
I believe we are strong enough to achieve the treble. Why would the board needlessly splash cash to achieve domestic successful which is practically guaranteed?
Has anyone considered that we are keeping the dough for next summer to regroup from the losses of Toure and Roberts?
"Don't do bad deals"
What about being bedded in for next years qualifiers? The main job of a board is to plan ahead. The result of not planning ahead means scrambling about for players at the last minute. Next year if we miss out on qualification because we try to integrate new players too late into the squad then the cycle may start again. Can't invest as we don't have CL money, hope I am wrong. Let's be clear we have at least £15m more coming in than we needed/expected it is doing nothing at the moment ( we have credit facilities to bring this forward ) whereas it should be working as a football asset to ensure we win the league, do as well as possible in this years CL - anything extra is a bonus - and be in good shape for our six qualifying games next year. Relatively we are far better off than expected in terms of the squad however we are even better off in terms of finance than expected. If this is down to BR then fair enough there is only so much he can do, if there is a lack of willingness elsewhere to go the extra mile to stay in the CL next year then that is a worry. I wouldn't say Dembele, Sinclair and Toure were fully 'bedded in' before these qualifiers yet they had (for the most part) a positive impact.
If the player is talented enough then the whole 'bedding in' concept doesn't really apply. Talented enough = instant impact.
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brianlara67
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1 Sep 2016, 02:33 PM
Post #8724
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- fatboab
- 1 Sep 2016, 12:51 PM
- MBhoy1888
- 1 Sep 2016, 12:46 PM
- brianlara67
- 1 Sep 2016, 12:43 PM
I think we are all agreed that we are better after this window, but it could and should have been better. The argument that was always put forward the past few years is that our risk averse Board wouldn't splash any cash because we didn't qualify for the CL (we won't go into they won't speculate to accumulate debate). Well this year we have and with more money than ever before and how have we done since we qualified last Tuesday? One player in and 2 out with a more than probable profit on those transactions if the fees involved are to be believed. If there was ever a time our risk averse Board were going to support our manager than this was it, especially as BR specifically identified what area of the team needed strengthening. And what happened? Not a lot really.
Next year's financials will be sensational and you will have to surgically remove the grin from SPLB's face especially when he gets his bonus.
I'm going to start a philosophical argument - namely should a football club be run at a profit? Or should every available penny be ploughed into the team after all expenses have been taken care of. Is stock piling cash you are never going to spend the right thing for a football club to do. Football is not like normal business. Normal businesses will aim to grow and grow and possibly take over rivals etc. A football club cannot do that. It can't take over a rival and double the stadium size. So what should be the business model for a football club. Our Board are very risk averse and I think they go too far in that direction. What's going to happen to the stock pile of cash we will get from this year's CL? Is it going to put away to be spent at some non specified point in future? Under this Board I think this is unlikely. So what happens to it? Say we qualify for the CL next year and the year after. If we operate a neutral transfer spend we will have banked almost £100M. What happens to it and indeed what should happen to it?
Where does this misconception arise from that Celtic are or have been 'stockpiling cash' ? If you look at the balance sheet it's obviously not the case.
one of the great misconceptions of our time. Stockpiling cash in a PLC. How does that work? Agreed we haven't been stockpiling cash - more or less breaking even over time. But this season's CL revenues are a game changer. Our operating costs are not going to increase substantially. The talk is of £30 million for qualification. Turnover is likely to be around £90M and wage costs about 30/40% of that. There will be other expenses of course. We could repay any long term loans due.
UEFA will give us actual cash for the TV revenues, participation bonus etc - it's not on paper it will be hard cash. We will have our gate receipts on top of that (cash) What do you think will happen to that cash? To say a PLC cannot stockpile cash is nonsense. I work for a large PLC and believe you me it has healthy cash reserves.
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fatboab
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1 Sep 2016, 02:37 PM
Post #8725
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Just before the Dawn
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- brianlara67
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Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
one of the great misconceptions of our time. Stockpiling cash in a PLC. How does that work?
Agreed we haven't been stockpiling cash - more or less breaking even over time. But this season's CL revenues are a game changer. Our operating costs are not going to increase substantially. The talk is of £30 million for qualification. Turnover is likely to be around £90M and wage costs about 30/40% of that. There will be other expenses of course. We could repay any long term loans due. UEFA will give us actual cash for the TV revenues, participation bonus etc - it's not on paper it will be hard cash. We will have our gate receipts on top of that (cash) What do you think will happen to that cash? To say a PLC cannot stockpile cash is nonsense. I work for a large PLC and believe you me it has healthy cash reserves. I meant more the notion that we somehow "hid" cash, which has been suggested over the years ( not in quoted post however). We will receive most of this windfall over a period late '16/early '17, and while some of it may be earmarked for debt settlement, I'd imagine we will buy a player or two in January. We won't be in a position to buy the mythical £10m player though, far more likely to see a couple at £3-4m coming in, and probably a couple more out.
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Adam Smith 11
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1 Sep 2016, 02:59 PM
Post #8726
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Contract up for renewal, now on a diet and trying harder.
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- 1 Sep 2016, 01:01 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deepmight make the difference between 3rd and 4th place in the CL and still being in Europe come January. The resources were there but we chose not to use them. Not spending money you have is as big a gamble as spending you money you don't have. And when we have chosen this route in the past decade, it hasn't turned it too well over the period has it ?
Just because we don't buy from the EPL doesn't mean their market valuations don't effect us. Anyone we scout will be available to English teams and will be touted around. In order to secure them we have to out compete that market which has the same effect on prices. Technically it is the same thing. The days of finding a rough diamond through scouting is gone in the connected world. We either pay the going rate or have a better system of adding value v coaching.
If your market is players in the EPL (the likes of Mccarthy & Wilshere), then economically it is a non starter for us. Agreed ? Yes we cannot compete EPL clubs when it comes to fees and wages, but the EPL cannot hoover up every player in Europe either. I simply don't accept that there wasn't a central midfielder somewhere, available and in our price range (financially we had a great summer) who would have enhaced our squad. Incidently in 2012 PL played hardball with Rosenborg over Markus Henriksen. They wanted £1.75M for a 20 year old Norwegian internationalist. PL wouldn't budge over £1.5M. Going into the last year of his contract with AZ67, last night saw him go to Hull for just under £5M. PL's failure to do the deal in 2012 is utterly symptomatic of how he has run Celtic since 2008. I wonder if such a scenario happened last night. The EPL does hoover up these players, it is a business within a business.
They are buying the players and loaning them out. Look at how many players are on loan from Chelsea, Man City etc.
This forces up the prices of all other players.
There is no player out there without an agent and there is no agent who will not tout their players around hence there are no players you get a free run at. Therefore you have to gazump what the second placed buyer would be prepared to pay, the buyers we are up against are the top 2 English leagues. It is market forces at play.
Playing hardball is fine but if you do not get players in a rising market then you fall further behind much like people who don't get on the housing market. It is market inflation in a rising market cash is worth less, our £15m will probably buy us less next year.
It was well known that values of players would go up around 50% due to the extra turnover being generated by the new tv deal in England, it was a straight forward calculation. As predicted it happened, fans who say that they can't believe these prices can be forgiven as it is not there forte, a board of a football club are expected to know this.
The one advantage we have over almost every team in England is that it is easier for us to get in the CL than them, we should do everything in our power and use every resource to maximise this opportunity. In the last week I don't know if we did that or we bottled it at the new pricing structure.
The Happoel tie showed us how frail our midfield is, we may fix this in January but the argument goes you don't really get value for money in the January window especially if we are out of Europe.
Baffled as to why £15m was not re-invested in our core business' assets. What else will we do with it, give it back to investors?
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Corky Buczek
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1 Sep 2016, 03:37 PM
Post #8727
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- Adam Smith 11
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- Corky Buczek
- 1 Sep 2016, 01:32 PM
- Adam Smith 11
- 1 Sep 2016, 01:21 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deepmight
If your market is players in the EPL (the likes of Mccarthy & Wilshere), then economically it is a non starter for us. Agreed ? Yes we cannot compete EPL clubs when it comes to fees and wages, but the EPL cannot hoover up every player in Europe either. I simply don't accept that there wasn't a central midfielder somewhere, available and in our price range (financially we had a great summer) who would have enhaced our squad. Incidently in 2012 PL played hardball with Rosenborg over Markus Henriksen. They wanted £1.75M for a 20 year old Norwegian internationalist. PL wouldn't budge over £1.5M. Going into the last year of his contract with AZ67, last night saw him go to Hull for just under £5M. PL's failure to do the deal in 2012 is utterly symptomatic of how he has run Celtic since 2008. I wonder if such a scenario happened last night.
The EPL does hoover up these players, it is a business within a business. They are buying the players and loaning them out. Look at how many players are on loan from Chelsea, Man City etc. This forces up the prices of all other players. There is no player out there without an agent and there is no agent who will not tout their players around hence there are no players you get a free run at. Therefore you have to gazump what the second placed buyer would be prepared to pay, the buyers we are up against are the top 2 English leagues. It is market forces at play. Playing hardball is fine but if you do not get players in a rising market then you fall further behind much like people who don't get on the housing market. It is market inflation in a rising market cash is worth less, our £15m will probably buy us less next year. It was well known that values of players would go up around 50% due to the extra turnover being generated by the new tv deal in England, it was a straight forward calculation. As predicted it happened, fans who say that they can't believe these prices can be forgiven as it is not there forte, a board of a football club are expected to know this. The one advantage we have over almost every team in England is that it is easier for us to get in the CL than them, we should do everything in our power and use every resource to maximise this opportunity. In the last week I don't know if we did that or we bottled it at the new pricing structure. The Happoel tie showed us how frail our midfield is, we may fix this in January but the argument goes you don't really get value for money in the January window especially if we are out of Europe. Baffled as to why £15m was not re-invested in our core business' assets. What else will we do with it, give it back to investors? No disrespect but I don't understand what you're saying. On one hand you appear to be saying that English clubs are hoovering up everyone - which isn't possible despite the efforts of the two clubs you mention. On the other you are bemoaning the fact that we didn't address the CM issue.
Yes they are responsible for price and wage inflation. BUT I simply don't accept that there were no CM's out there, who we could afford and who would enhance our squad particularly when we had the revenue to do so. If Everton said they wanted £3M for one season of McCarthy as well as picking up his wages then I would agree with PL if he said no way. But as i pointed PL has walked from deals over relatively small amounts (I'm told we were £2K a week apart in terms of wages with Giroud in 2009 so we signed Rasmussen instead) and it has cost us. I ask the question did he do that in the past week ? Dunno, but you will have to excuse my cynicism towards a Chief Exec who has made a moses of many a transfer window.
Next season, will see us in all probability have to replace Toure, Roberts and Izzy whilst we walk the usual tightrope of three CL qualifying ties. Can I therefore suggest that addressing CM in January is a must that should have been looked at this past week ?
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mizpah
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1 Sep 2016, 03:40 PM
Post #8728
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- ChiliPepper
- 1 Sep 2016, 12:16 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Rodgers is not a bedwetter like so many of our support
You said in another thread that is we had signed Sinclair and dembele last night we'd all be raving about it. As another poster pointed out to you, we would be facing the Europa League without the goals they brought with them by signing them earlier in the window. We have a central midfield who couldn't cut last year in the aforesaid Europa League nor against Sevco last April. Yet here they are as we face without doubt our toughest ever CL group. Are we in a better position than we were in May ? Definitely. Could we have done better in the past week ? Yes without doubt and given the resources we have its very disappointing we didn't. Hardly bedwetting. If we'd have signed a midfielder it would have been onto the next complaint.
Not a single poster on here would have predicted we'd be in such a good state come Sept 1st. Not a single one. And yet all you get on here is shambles this and shambles that.
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brianlara67
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1 Sep 2016, 03:56 PM
Post #8729
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- fatboab
- 1 Sep 2016, 02:37 PM
- brianlara67
- 1 Sep 2016, 02:33 PM
- fatboab
- 1 Sep 2016, 12:51 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Agreed we haven't been stockpiling cash - more or less breaking even over time. But this season's CL revenues are a game changer. Our operating costs are not going to increase substantially. The talk is of £30 million for qualification. Turnover is likely to be around £90M and wage costs about 30/40% of that. There will be other expenses of course. We could repay any long term loans due. UEFA will give us actual cash for the TV revenues, participation bonus etc - it's not on paper it will be hard cash. We will have our gate receipts on top of that (cash) What do you think will happen to that cash? To say a PLC cannot stockpile cash is nonsense. I work for a large PLC and believe you me it has healthy cash reserves.
I meant more the notion that we somehow "hid" cash, which has been suggested over the years ( not in quoted post however). We will receive most of this windfall over a period late '16/early '17, and while some of it may be earmarked for debt settlement, I'd imagine we will buy a player or two in January. We won't be in a position to buy the mythical £10m player though, far more likely to see a couple at £3-4m coming in, and probably a couple more out. Agreed
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Big Drew
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1 Sep 2016, 04:00 PM
Post #8730
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- fatboab
- 1 Sep 2016, 02:37 PM
- brianlara67
- 1 Sep 2016, 02:33 PM
- fatboab
- 1 Sep 2016, 12:51 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Agreed we haven't been stockpiling cash - more or less breaking even over time. But this season's CL revenues are a game changer. Our operating costs are not going to increase substantially. The talk is of £30 million for qualification. Turnover is likely to be around £90M and wage costs about 30/40% of that. There will be other expenses of course. We could repay any long term loans due. UEFA will give us actual cash for the TV revenues, participation bonus etc - it's not on paper it will be hard cash. We will have our gate receipts on top of that (cash) What do you think will happen to that cash? To say a PLC cannot stockpile cash is nonsense. I work for a large PLC and believe you me it has healthy cash reserves.
I meant more the notion that we somehow "hid" cash, which has been suggested over the years ( not in quoted post however). We will receive most of this windfall over a period late '16/early '17, and while some of it may be earmarked for debt settlement, I'd imagine we will buy a player or two in January. We won't be in a position to buy the mythical £10m player though, far more likely to see a couple at £3-4m coming in, and probably a couple more out. We have already received the money for ticket sales for the qualifiers, play-off and group games. Also some hospitality and the TV rights for the two home qualifiers. I'd estimate that at about 10 million after VAT.
If we progress from the group then we will have ticket sales, etc. coming in this season, maybe in January.
The prize and TV money wont have come in yet. I always thought that that money was paid out in one sum after the tournament was over. UEFA site doesn't spell that out though. Does anyone know?
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Ned Rise
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1 Sep 2016, 04:09 PM
Post #8731
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These boots were made for hunbustin'
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- mizpah
- 1 Sep 2016, 03:40 PM
- Corky Buczek
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- mizpah
- 1 Sep 2016, 01:42 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
You said in another thread that is we had signed Sinclair and dembele last night we'd all be raving about it. As another poster pointed out to you, we would be facing the Europa League without the goals they brought with them by signing them earlier in the window. We have a central midfield who couldn't cut last year in the aforesaid Europa League nor against Sevco last April. Yet here they are as we face without doubt our toughest ever CL group. Are we in a better position than we were in May ? Definitely. Could we have done better in the past week ? Yes without doubt and given the resources we have its very disappointing we didn't. Hardly bedwetting.
If we'd have signed a midfielder it would have been onto the next complaint. Not a single poster on here would have predicted we'd be in such a good state come Sept 1st. Not a single one. And yet all you get on here is shambles this and shambles that. It's not really all you get on here, though, is it?
There's a range of opinions and most people acknowledge that the first team is stronger than the one that ended the season (wouldn't be hard mind you, after their disintegration in the Champions League, the Europa League and then the icing on the cake, the Scottish Cup).
So, yes, we're certainly better. The team looks fitter and they have a better shape to them and, importantly, don't look as if they've just woken up in odd surroundings in a different century after being cryogenically frozen.
But... (this is the bit where people seem to require a cold compress) was enough done in the week following Champions League qualification and the money that will flow in as a result.
No hypotheticals about whether we'd have been happy with 'the best window ever' if we'd signed all of our new players on the last day (hypothetically we might have only qualified for the Europa League at best, leaving us £20+million down). Just the simple scenario, was enough done?
If Brendan Rodgers thinks it was, then fair enough. If he's pissed off about it, then it's not fair enough.
If it transpires that Bitton and Brown take turns at getting man of the match in our Champions League games, then we'll all look back and laugh at this.
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Adam Smith 11
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1 Sep 2016, 04:17 PM
Post #8732
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Contract up for renewal, now on a diet and trying harder.
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Quoting limited to 3 levels deepmight
The EPL does hoover up these players, it is a business within a business. They are buying the players and loaning them out. Look at how many players are on loan from Chelsea, Man City etc. This forces up the prices of all other players. There is no player out there without an agent and there is no agent who will not tout their players around hence there are no players you get a free run at. Therefore you have to gazump what the second placed buyer would be prepared to pay, the buyers we are up against are the top 2 English leagues. It is market forces at play. Playing hardball is fine but if you do not get players in a rising market then you fall further behind much like people who don't get on the housing market. It is market inflation in a rising market cash is worth less, our £15m will probably buy us less next year. It was well known that values of players would go up around 50% due to the extra turnover being generated by the new tv deal in England, it was a straight forward calculation. As predicted it happened, fans who say that they can't believe these prices can be forgiven as it is not there forte, a board of a football club are expected to know this. The one advantage we have over almost every team in England is that it is easier for us to get in the CL than them, we should do everything in our power and use every resource to maximise this opportunity. In the last week I don't know if we did that or we bottled it at the new pricing structure. The Happoel tie showed us how frail our midfield is, we may fix this in January but the argument goes you don't really get value for money in the January window especially if we are out of Europe. Baffled as to why £15m was not re-invested in our core business' assets. What else will we do with it, give it back to investors?
No disrespect but I don't understand what you're saying. On one hand you appear to be saying that English clubs are hoovering up everyone - which isn't possible despite the efforts of the two clubs you mention. On the other you are bemoaning the fact that we didn't address the CM issue. Yes they are responsible for price and wage inflation. BUT I simply don't accept that there were no CM's out there, who we could afford and who would enhance our squad particularly when we had the revenue to do so. If Everton said they wanted £3M for one season of McCarthy as well as picking up his wages then I would agree with PL if he said no way. But as i pointed PL has walked from deals over relatively small amounts (I'm told we were £2K a week apart in terms of wages with Giroud in 2009 so we signed Rasmussen instead) and it has cost us. I ask the question did he do that in the past week ? Dunno, but you will have to excuse my cynicism towards a Chief Exec who has made a moses of many a transfer window. Next season, will see us in all probability have to replace Toure, Roberts and Izzy whilst we walk the usual tightrope of three CL qualifying ties. Can I therefore suggest that addressing CM in January is a must that should have been looked at this past week ? They are hoovering up the top players and paying them a lot of money whether they need the player or not. The EPL with 20 teams probably hovers up the top 700 players who are prepared to play in the UK ( more players than needed so it increases the value by causing a constraint, an old trick of Socrates, allegedly )
The championship are competing with us for the next 700 players. As things stand.
Let's say of the first 700 players 100 are CMs and we want one of them well if the premiership see the cost of this as £15m or £3m a year ( whatever way you want to express it) and we are not prepared to pay this then we are out of that market. I think we are agreed on that.
Let's say this good player appears in Croatia and is performing at high levels. This is not going to be a secret. So he will either be bought by the EPL to play or loaned out at £3m a year.
If not good enough for EPL the championship teams will pick him up. At say £8m or £1.6m per year.
There is only one way that we are going to get that player it is by paying what the rest of the market are prepared to pay.
If we throw our toys out the pram ( toughen it up by calling it hardball ) by saying "these prices are too high" then we have to go to an even lower market or just stick with what we have I think ( and I may be wrong ) that is what we have done.
A player like a house doesn't have a value other than what others are prepared to pay for it, I can howl at the moon all I want at the prices / rental of houses in a popular city centre but if I choose not to pay it I am not going to get a house. The market will not come to me I have to go to it.
Either we pay the market price that the EPL is paying as an investment to get in the CL or we tut tut at the prices like generations of people involved with football have always done.
The last week may have been a clue as to how much we are prepared to go to get into the CL. Yes Brendan picked up some good bargains in Toure and Sinclair ( new managers do tend to have that at the start but they run dry ), Dembele iwas good because we exploited the "Ledley" loophole which we can continue to do.
Any purchase at market price is a gamble but most of the time markets go up, this one in particular is underpinned by new tv money. So I ask if not now, when?
Does anyone actually think a decent CM will be cheaper next year?
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Corky Buczek
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1 Sep 2016, 04:18 PM
Post #8733
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- 26 May 2005
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- mizpah
- 1 Sep 2016, 03:40 PM
- Corky Buczek
- 1 Sep 2016, 02:00 PM
- mizpah
- 1 Sep 2016, 01:42 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
You said in another thread that is we had signed Sinclair and dembele last night we'd all be raving about it. As another poster pointed out to you, we would be facing the Europa League without the goals they brought with them by signing them earlier in the window. We have a central midfield who couldn't cut last year in the aforesaid Europa League nor against Sevco last April. Yet here they are as we face without doubt our toughest ever CL group. Are we in a better position than we were in May ? Definitely. Could we have done better in the past week ? Yes without doubt and given the resources we have its very disappointing we didn't. Hardly bedwetting.
If we'd have signed a midfielder it would have been onto the next complaint. Not a single poster on here would have predicted we'd be in such a good state come Sept 1st. Not a single one. And yet all you get on here is shambles this and shambles that. You're right that few predicted we would better off last May. Maybe that's something to do with the dross we've been served up in the past 4 summer transfer windows and the appointment of a project manager in 2014.
But the rest of what you say is utter nonsense. No one is saying it was shambles. What some of us are saying that we have improved the team but a glaring weakness remains untouched despite us having the resources to address it. That aspect is disappointing. But it is hardly a damning critique of the past 4 months. But if you think otherwise.........
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Adam Smith 11
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1 Sep 2016, 04:22 PM
Post #8734
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Contract up for renewal, now on a diet and trying harder.
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- Big Drew
- 1 Sep 2016, 04:00 PM
- fatboab
- 1 Sep 2016, 02:37 PM
- brianlara67
- 1 Sep 2016, 02:33 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I meant more the notion that we somehow "hid" cash, which has been suggested over the years ( not in quoted post however). We will receive most of this windfall over a period late '16/early '17, and while some of it may be earmarked for debt settlement, I'd imagine we will buy a player or two in January. We won't be in a position to buy the mythical £10m player though, far more likely to see a couple at £3-4m coming in, and probably a couple more out.
We have already received the money for ticket sales for the qualifiers, play-off and group games. Also some hospitality and the TV rights for the two home qualifiers. I'd estimate that at about 10 million after VAT. If we progress from the group then we will have ticket sales, etc. coming in this season, maybe in January. The prize and TV money wont have come in yet. I always thought that that money was paid out in one sum after the tournament was over. UEFA site doesn't spell that out though. Does anyone know? Whatever the payment terms of in comings we have the much vaunted credit facilities that would bridge payment gaps.
Wages are paid monthly and most fees are structured, if we wanted to we could have.
I believe we really wanted to sign a good CM, of course we did no one is seriously saying PL didn't try.
The mistake I believe we made was that we really wanted it but not enough to pay the market rate.
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Wanyerma
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1 Sep 2016, 04:23 PM
Post #8735
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- Ned Rise
- 1 Sep 2016, 04:09 PM
- mizpah
- 1 Sep 2016, 03:40 PM
- Corky Buczek
- 1 Sep 2016, 02:00 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
If we'd have signed a midfielder it would have been onto the next complaint. Not a single poster on here would have predicted we'd be in such a good state come Sept 1st. Not a single one. And yet all you get on here is shambles this and shambles that.
It's not really all you get on here, though, is it? There's a range of opinions and most people acknowledge that the first team is stronger than the one that ended the season (wouldn't be hard mind you, after their disintegration in the Champions League, the Europa League and then the icing on the cake, the Scottish Cup). So, yes, we're certainly better. The team looks fitter and they have a better shape to them and, importantly, don't look as if they've just woken up in odd surroundings in a different century after being cryogenically frozen. But... (this is the bit where people seem to require a cold compress) was enough done in the week following Champions League qualification and the money that will flow in as a result. No hypotheticals about whether we'd have been happy with 'the best window ever' if we'd signed all of our new players on the last day (hypothetically we might have only qualified for the Europa League at best, leaving us £20+million down). Just the simple scenario, was enough done? If Brendan Rodgers thinks it was, then fair enough. If he's pissed off about it, then it's not fair enough. If it transpires that Bitton and Brown take turns at getting man of the match in our Champions League games, then we'll all look back and laugh at this. Perfect summation, Ned.
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Corky Buczek
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1 Sep 2016, 04:26 PM
Post #8736
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- Adam Smith 11
- 1 Sep 2016, 04:17 PM
- Corky Buczek
- 1 Sep 2016, 03:37 PM
- Adam Smith 11
- 1 Sep 2016, 02:59 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deepmight
No disrespect but I don't understand what you're saying. On one hand you appear to be saying that English clubs are hoovering up everyone - which isn't possible despite the efforts of the two clubs you mention. On the other you are bemoaning the fact that we didn't address the CM issue. Yes they are responsible for price and wage inflation. BUT I simply don't accept that there were no CM's out there, who we could afford and who would enhance our squad particularly when we had the revenue to do so. If Everton said they wanted £3M for one season of McCarthy as well as picking up his wages then I would agree with PL if he said no way. But as i pointed PL has walked from deals over relatively small amounts (I'm told we were £2K a week apart in terms of wages with Giroud in 2009 so we signed Rasmussen instead) and it has cost us. I ask the question did he do that in the past week ? Dunno, but you will have to excuse my cynicism towards a Chief Exec who has made a moses of many a transfer window. Next season, will see us in all probability have to replace Toure, Roberts and Izzy whilst we walk the usual tightrope of three CL qualifying ties. Can I therefore suggest that addressing CM in January is a must that should have been looked at this past week ?
They are hoovering up the top players and paying them a lot of money whether they need the player or not. The EPL with 20 teams probably hovers up the top 700 players who are prepared to play in the UK ( more players than needed so it increases the value by causing a constraint, an old trick of Socrates, allegedly ) The championship are competing with us for the next 700 players. As things stand. Let's say of the first 700 players 100 are CMs and we want one of them well if the premiership see the cost of this as £15m or £3m a year ( whatever way you want to express it) and we are not prepared to pay this then we are out of that market. I think we are agreed on that. Let's say this good player appears in Croatia and is performing at high levels. This is not going to be a secret. So he will either be bought by the EPL to play or loaned out at £3m a year. If not good enough for EPL the championship teams will pick him up. At say £8m or £1.6m per year. There is only one way that we are going to get that player it is by paying what the rest of the market are prepared to pay. If we throw our toys out the pram ( toughen it up by calling it hardball ) by saying "these prices are too high" then we have to go to an even lower market or just stick with what we have I think ( and I may be wrong ) that is what we have done. A player like a house doesn't have a value other than what others are prepared to pay for it, I can howl at the moon all I want at the prices / rental of houses in a popular city centre but if I choose not to pay it I am not going to get a house. The market will not come to me I have to go to it. Either we pay the market price that the EPL is paying as an investment to get in the CL or we tut tut at the prices like generations of people involved with football have always done. The last week may have been a clue as to how much we are prepared to go to get into the CL. Yes Brendan picked up some good bargains in Toure and Sinclair ( new managers do tend to have that at the start but they run dry ), Dembele iwas good because we exploited the "Ledley" loophole which we can continue to do. Any purchase at market price is a gamble but most of the time markets go up, this one in particular is underpinned by new tv money. So I ask if not now, when? Does anyone actually think a decent CM will be cheaper next year? So how are other teams across Europe able to fill their squads if very talent is heading to the EPL ?
You mention Croatia. We were linked with Ivan Mocnic of Rijeka in December who would have been in Croatia Euro 2016 squad if it were not for injury. Why did he end up with Rapid Wien, who spent £2.5M on him this summer, and not in England ?
I agree that at times we do need to up the ante and go with the market even if means that the cost of the player has increased - but that is within reason. If the loan terms for McCarthy that are being quoted are true then I would back PL for saying no way. However the examples of Henriksen and Giroud are the opposite extreme of PL being penny wise and pound foolish.
The market will NOT be any cheaper next year and given that other areas of the team will need addressing, I would strongly argue that CM is a major priority in January.
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Neil Jung
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1 Sep 2016, 04:27 PM
Post #8737
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Off treasure hunting in Holland
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I think fans wanting a central midfielder signed purely to compete in the Champions League are wrong. One midfielder won't make a difference as there is a big chance that with the squad of players we have, and the way our manager likes to play, we are going to take some pumping no matter who was signed. What we should be doing is always looking to make our team as strong as it can be. The major deficiency in the way we play are the midfielders. Unless something miraculous happens with Armstrong we have 4 midfielders who will play at various times. All of these guys have weaknesses at domestic level never mind European level. Here's hoping come January we get more of the deadwood out and can bring in one or two midfielders, not on loan, to continue the initial progress Rodgers has already made.
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greenjedi
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1 Sep 2016, 04:28 PM
Post #8738
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- Neil Jung
- 1 Sep 2016, 04:27 PM
I think fans wanting a central midfielder signed purely to compete in the Champions League are wrong. One midfielder won't make a difference as there is a big chance that with the squad of players we have, and the way our manager likes to play, we are going to take some pumping no matter who was signed. What we should be doing is always looking to make our team as strong as it can be. The major deficiency in the way we play are the midfielders. Unless something miraculous happens with Armstrong we have 4 midfielders who will play at various times. All of these guys have weaknesses at domestic level never mind European level. Here's hoping come January we get more of the deadwood out and can bring in one or two midfielders, not on loan, to continue the initial progress Rodgers has already made. We wanted a quality CM for one eason, our current crop of CM players are well, CRAP!!!!
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mizpah
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1 Sep 2016, 06:11 PM
Post #8739
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- Corky Buczek
- 1 Sep 2016, 04:18 PM
No one is saying it was shambles. What some of us are saying that we have improved the team but a glaring weakness remains untouched despite us having the resources to address it. That aspect is disappointing. But it is hardly a damning critique of the past 4 months. But if you think otherwise.........
Were you on here last night caller? Trying to characterise the response last night as some people saying certain "aspects" are "disappointing" is hilarious.
Go and read it. Then come back and tell me I'm talking "nonsense." Shambles (used by 3 or 4 separate posters) is the least of what was being said.
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Big Drew
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1 Sep 2016, 06:19 PM
Post #8740
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- Adam Smith 11
- 1 Sep 2016, 04:22 PM
- Big Drew
- 1 Sep 2016, 04:00 PM
- fatboab
- 1 Sep 2016, 02:37 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
We have already received the money for ticket sales for the qualifiers, play-off and group games. Also some hospitality and the TV rights for the two home qualifiers. I'd estimate that at about 10 million after VAT. If we progress from the group then we will have ticket sales, etc. coming in this season, maybe in January. The prize and TV money wont have come in yet. I always thought that that money was paid out in one sum after the tournament was over. UEFA site doesn't spell that out though. Does anyone know?
Whatever the payment terms of in comings we have the much vaunted credit facilities that would bridge payment gaps. Wages are paid monthly and most fees are structured, if we wanted to we could have. I believe we really wanted to sign a good CM, of course we did no one is seriously saying PL didn't try. The mistake I believe we made was that we really wanted it but not enough to pay the market rate. Agreed. Was just wondering how it worked rather than making excuses.
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