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The Board - general discussion (including Res 12); notes from the AGM
Topic Started: 15 Jul 2014, 12:03 AM (1,415,022 Views)
daleybhoy
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First-team captain
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Auldyin
15 Jul 2014, 02:53 PM
Mubo Loravcik
15 Jul 2014, 12:36 AM
Tim Waits
15 Jul 2014, 12:24 AM
Excellent financial management overall. The long-term strategy is conservative and while that minimizes risk it means that improvement in the team is slow and sometimes erratic. All that I can live with easily. But decisions like killing the living wage initiative are penny wise and pound foolish (as well as morally questionable) in a business where you rely on the goodwill of your support as much as Celtic does.
Pretty much agree although sadly I think the board are out of touch and people like Peter Lawwell, while good business wise, are manipulators in the style of New Labour in its infancy; cringe-worthy slogans and using all the nice language (Celtic family, more than a club). This was exemplified by their disgraceful refusal to implement the Living Wage initiative. And I won't even touch the issue of Lord Reid being chairman prior to Bankier.

I also can't abide the 'at least we won't die like the Rangers' retort to the slightest bit of questioning on our transfer policy. I do think it's the correct and only road we can go down and I have no problem with selling the likes of Wanyama for an 8 figure fee, but it needs tweaked. I also think the board need to grasp that perhaps fans are apathetic - shown by decline in attendances - because Leigh Griffiths, Teemu Pukki, Amido Balde or even 'Tony' Stokes don't excite the punters. For all our domestic dominance, I just want one striker worthy of the name and one winger supplying said striker who isn't inconsistent, perma-injured or an imposter.

Is that too much to ask?




On the Living Wage I missed out on the background and reasons when it all took place. Recently someone suggested they would be happy to pay for it via an increase in their ST and I thought that the cost of doing it and the funding of that cost was missing from the resolution which said:

” 11. This AGM instructs the PLC Board to take all necessary steps to make Celtic Football Club a Living Wage employer by ensuring that all employees are paid a minimum rate of £7.45 per hour and to upgrade this annually in line with the Scottish Living Wage Campaign recommendations. Celtic FC would become the first football club in the UK to do so and will set an example to both sporting employers and the wider business community in the country.”


The actual cost was not established beforehand but the following Resolution would cover the point to fund via the season ticket.

” 11. This AGM instructs the PLC Board to make Celtic Football Club a Living Wage employer by ensuring that all employees are paid a minimum rate of £X.XX (7.45) per hour funded by a corresponding increase on individual tickets spread across the adult ticket range and to upgrade the Living Wage and the cost of doing so annually in line with the Scottish Living Wage Campaign recommendations. If Ticket sale income drops below the cost of funding a Living Wage in year one and subsequent annual increases then the Living Wage or annual increase will not be implemented in that sales season. Celtic FC would become the first football club in the UK to do so and will set an example to sporting employers, other clubs and the wider business community in the country.

Celtic would then be in a position in their response to indicate to shareholders how much tickets would increase by and shareholders could vote in the knowledge of the cost to them of what they were committing the club to do.

Alternatively you fund payment from CL Group stage money in the form of an end of season bonus equivalent to what anyone below the Living wage would have got had it been in force in that season year ending.

Whatever way you slice and dice it the cost and funding has to be part of the debate rather than the club taking the necessary steps with no feel for how they would be received. As a shareholder I would want all the information before deciding which way to vote so that I knew what I was voting for.
It shouldn't need to come directly from season ticket holders. We pay for everything that happens at Celtic, there shouldn't need to be an extra tax on it.

Yes they need to do the maths and show what it would cost but that shouldn't have stopped it going ahead.

As was pointed out earlier most of the employees on a match day are hired in by agencies, as disgraceful as that also is, so the people affected by the living wage initiative would have been minimal and it would have been people who work at celtic park day in, day out doing essential things in the stadium for eff all money.



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kingbhoyd
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Corky Buczek
15 Jul 2014, 02:01 PM
kingbhoyd
15 Jul 2014, 01:39 PM
Corky Buczek
15 Jul 2014, 01:14 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The Ltip was payable at the end of four years, so the agreement predated his salary increase. There was an additional amount agreed after he turned down the arsenal job but he was due a large payout as part of a standard agreement that Eric Riley also benefitted from
Fine it wasn't for "knocking back" the Arsenal gig. A totally OTT payment none the less for merely staying to do his job :rolleyes:
not really, its bog standard stuff in a ceo contract, and it's not just for still being there, there will be requirements that need to be met
Edited by kingbhoyd, 15 Jul 2014, 05:49 PM.
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josephledley
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need to do more in player recruitment especially a striker. cant expect people to pay a £500 season ticket and watch dross on the park
Edited by josephledley, 15 Jul 2014, 05:58 PM.
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Mrs HF4Ls Biggest fan
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Having watched that mince, time to blow the dust off the cheque book Peter...or we won't be getting through the next two rounds :ph43r:
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CelticWay1888
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M74 Extension
15 Jul 2014, 09:52 PM
Having watched that mince, time to blow the dust off the cheque book Peter...or we won't be getting through the next two rounds :ph43r:
looking at the last couple of seasons of getting to the group stages, that team will not beat a Helsingborgs or a Karagandy

i expect a couple of signings shortly, this team wont bring in the champions league millions they've gotten used to
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Bawman
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When we are, we are and when we're not, we're not. Right now we're not.
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Neil Jung
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I'm no the only one to say it but the money paid to players, coaches, staff etc goes down while Lawwells pay stays at a rate the equivalent of a top European counterpart. Maybe saving some cash on our CE could go towards the wages of a couple of players who are better than the 'Good Enough' standard.
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remy mcswain
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Neil Jung
15 Jul 2014, 10:11 PM
I'm no the only one to say it but the money paid to players, coaches, staff etc goes down while Lawwells pay stays at a rate the equivalent of a top European counterpart. Maybe saving some cash on our CE could go towards the wages of a couple of players who are better than the 'Good Enough' standard.
Works for me :thumbsup:

We are downsizing all over the club.

I'd prefer he moved on though.
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Edmontim
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From a business perspective you have to be happy with the board. We are making a profit in an industry where 95% of companies do not make a profit. Any debt we have had in recent times is very manageable as well.

However, we are supporters. Celtic should be at least breaking even to provide the supporters with as much entertainment as possible. In addition, they should ensure the squad's quality does not drop - which they have failed at. The manager should be allocated all transfer fees to reinvest in the team. The board/PL (same thing) make no attempt to replace players with similar quality. Forester will be sold and he will be replaced for 1-2m. VVD will be sold and replaced for 1-2m........and so on, and so on. We may unearth the odd gem that makes us a tidy profit but the squad will regress. I honestly don't believe we can rely totally on scouting and a club of our size must bring in the odd experienced/proven/quality player.

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jimbhoy0507
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Wish we would take some more risk when signing players without putting the club at risk.
We have stokes, Balde. Pukki got rid of bangura murphy bought leigh.
Six players paid for and still none good enough at what point do you go out and pay that bit more to help your manager out.
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LoveCeltic
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Neil Jung
15 Jul 2014, 10:11 PM
I'm no the only one to say it but the money paid to players, coaches, staff etc goes down while Lawwells pay stays at a rate the equivalent of a top European counterpart. Maybe saving some cash on our CE could go towards the wages of a couple of players who are better than the 'Good Enough' standard.
:thumbsup:

Agreed.
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LoveCeltic
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Edmontim
15 Jul 2014, 10:16 PM
From a business perspective you have to be happy with the board. We are making a profit in an industry where 95% of companies do not make a profit. Any debt we have had in recent times is very manageable as well.

However, we are supporters. Celtic should be at least breaking even to provide the supporters with as much entertainment as possible. In addition, they should ensure the squad's quality does not drop - which they have failed at. The manager should be allocated all transfer fees to reinvest in the team. The board/PL (same thing) make no attempt to replace players with similar quality. Forester will be sold and he will be replaced for 1-2m. VVD will be sold and replaced for 1-2m........and so on, and so on. We may unearth the odd gem that makes us a tidy profit but the squad will regress. I honestly don't believe we can rely totally on scouting and a club of our size must bring in the odd experienced/proven/quality player.

Do football clubs have to make a profit? Could we not be breaking even and supplying the best possible on park "product"?
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janvoh
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as a business they do a great job.

as a football club, id like a little more.
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beer_goggler1888
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The bean counting , penny pinching is a hindrance. For a little more speculation on the player recruitment , potential longer term rewards would be available readily.

Like spending an extra £5-6 million pounds in the budget on a better quality of player after we sell proven performers could gaurantee us Champions league qualification 3-4 years on the pop. And getting fans in the door to see a good player.

We'd be in a different stratosphere with 3-4 years Champion league money rather than "gambling" yearly with our entry by selling our better players and bringing in "moneyballers". Culminating in a yearly collection of deadwood bunging up the wagebill.

Our spectacular failures in the last decade come down too poor planning squadwise , failing to secure a target because we won't budge on the difference of an Amido Balde/Mo Bangura. It falls at Lawwells door. He's the gambler with a deferred bonus scheme.



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LoveCeltic
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I think the attendance shows the overall mood with what the board are putting on the park for us and how much they are meeting the fans standards/treating the fans.
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Rieper's Toe
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beer_goggler1888
16 Jul 2014, 03:13 PM

The bean counting , penny pinching is a hindrance. For a little more speculation on the player recruitment , potential longer term rewards would be available readily.

Like spending an extra £5-6 million pounds in the budget on a better quality of player after we sell proven performers could gaurantee us Champions league qualification 3-4 years on the pop. And getting fans in the door to see a good player.

We'd be in a different stratosphere with 3-4 years Champion league money rather than "gambling" yearly with our entry by selling our better players and bringing in "moneyballers". Culminating in a yearly collection of deadwood bunging up the wagebill.

Our spectacular failures in the last decade come down too poor planning squadwise , failing to secure a target because we won't budge on the difference of an Amido Balde/Mo Bangura. It falls at Lawwells door. He's the gambler with a deferred bonus scheme.



Can you give examples of players who cost slightly more than balde and who would guarantee qualification ?

They don't exist, even going nuts and spending 5/6 million a player on a couple of players would in no way guarantee qualification. Signing multiple players who we can afford to have one out of three do well is the strategy, and it works. If we spend more on signing fees, and more on wages we are less able to tolerate a player not working out because then we are stuck with an expensive mistake for the 3/4 years of their contract.
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LoveCeltic
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Instead of signing 3 players their combined fee plus combined wages etc etc could easily get us one player who could walk into the starting 11. This would probably let us sign a player with a proven record rather than gambles with no scoring record like Balde and Pukki, which in turn could guarantee champions league football. Or do you disagree with this?

Whats the difference with one expensive flop and the stacks of useless strikers we currently have taking up an equivalent wage and the same amount of transfer fees?
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embdysman
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There has been a theory doing the rounds for a few years now that if we only spent £x million on two or three players then we would 'guarantee' qualification for the CL group stages. I call it the 'Steven Fletcher' theory.

Utter tosh.

Also, someone earlier mentioned that we shouldn't spend so much on all these 'projects', some of whom turn out to be poor. The idea proposed was that we should use the money from the 'failed' projects to buy one good quality player. Do I need to point out that it's impossible to do that? We don't know the 'failed' ones until we try and they fail. With that approach you don't get a VVD or a Wanyama and for all you know your one good quality player could be a Tommy Gravesen or a Juninho.

There are no certainties in football transfers. There is no magic solution. Remember that the team who lost 5-0 to Artmedia had Marshall, Balde, Maloney, Lennon, Petrov, Thompson, Hartson, Sutton and McGeady in the team. How much would it cost to buy all of them?

We are therefore left with a choice - live within our means, develop the youth setup and buy up-and-coming players with potential OR take a gamble and spend £x million on new players who might improve the squad or might not.

It doesn't make any sense. Clubs all over Europe do it every year, so it seems to us to be the norm but it is absolute madness and will eventually end in tears.

Ross McCormack for £11m anyone?

Right now we are not in a great place in terms of competing with other clubs in Europe. That is largely due to an awful domestic league with minimal TV income. For the time being that is a factor outwith our control and there is no point complaining about it. We just need to get on with supporting our team and being thankful that we will be here for years to come and one day will have a chance to capitalise on running a tight ship just now.

P.S. Totally agree that staff should be paid a Living Wage. That decision was appalling. I reckon it would take the wages of one first team player to cover the whole initiative and as someone alluded to earlier - you reap what you sow.

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Neil Jung
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The buy low sell high business plan is a good one but its time to adjust it and move on to the next level. Other teams of a similar stature to ours still manage to spend a bit of cash when the right player comes along. We don't. We buy lots of players around about the same value and our squad gets bigger but not necessarily better. When a player does improve and stand out he'll be sold. This is our choice. We choose to carry the bigger squad instead of having a couple less senior players so we can pay better wages to attract better quality.
Edited by Neil Jung, 16 Jul 2014, 05:48 PM.
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Rieper's Toe
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Neil Jung
16 Jul 2014, 05:46 PM
The buy low sell high business plan is a good one but its time to adjust it and move on to the next level. Other teams of a similar stature to ours still manage to spend a bit of cash when the right player comes along. We don't. We buy lots of players around about the same value and our squad gets bigger but not necessarily better. When a player does improve and stand out he'll be sold. This is our choice. We choose to carry the bigger squad instead of having a couple less senior players so we can pay better wages to attract better quality.
How do you tell which is the right player , assuming they would want to play in Scotland which is the other major problem we have?
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