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The Board - general discussion (including Res 12); notes from the AGM
Topic Started: 15 Jul 2014, 12:03 AM (1,414,732 Views)
kearnsy
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Can see more English teams in this revamped European league
Liverpool will get in as they have the following
Maybe 3 from Germany 4 from Italy
A couple from France and four from Spain
It's not about winners it's about getting the viewers and sponsors .
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Corky Buczek
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OK

We know that the likes of Munich and Milan will want this but what every other country and also the non-elite clubs in the England. Germany, Spain etc.

If they go down this route, they may find that the rest of Europe and other clubs within their own country (particularly Spain and Italy) finally grow a pair and tell them where to go.

If you think that English clubs outside the "Top 4" are just going to accept a situation where Leicester win the league but don't get into the CL then I think you'd be surprised at the reaction.
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FergusMcGrain
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Corky Buczek
14 Feb 2016, 01:15 PM
OK

We know that the likes of Munich and Milan will want this but what every other country and also the non-elite clubs in the England. Germany, Spain etc.

If they go down this route, they may find that the rest of Europe and other clubs within their own country (particularly Spain and Italy) finally grow a pair and tell them where to go.

If you think that English clubs outside the "Top 4" are just going to accept a situation where Leicester win the league but don't get into the CL then I think you'd be surprised at the reaction.
I think the new idea/proposal is that these 'top twenty' clubs go off and form a League of their own?
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Corky Buczek
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FergusMcGrain
14 Feb 2016, 01:54 PM
Corky Buczek
14 Feb 2016, 01:15 PM
OK

We know that the likes of Munich and Milan will want this but what every other country and also the non-elite clubs in the England. Germany, Spain etc.

If they go down this route, they may find that the rest of Europe and other clubs within their own country (particularly Spain and Italy) finally grow a pair and tell them where to go.

If you think that English clubs outside the "Top 4" are just going to accept a situation where Leicester win the league but don't get into the CL then I think you'd be surprised at the reaction.
I think the new idea/proposal is that these 'top twenty' clubs go off and form a League of their own?
From what i can see - and I could be wrong - its a Champions League by invite to certain clubs. The EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A and Ligue 1 would continue.

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J_C_X
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Dannybhoy95
14 Feb 2016, 04:59 AM
tinytim81
14 Feb 2016, 01:00 AM
There is no maybe about. This is what is going to happen.
No it won't. :lol:

You really think the 'locked out' clubs in England, Spain, Italy ect will stand for it? They won't.

Even if in the remote chance this happens, let's see how often Barca and Bayern trade titles before Man United and the likes want to go back to their native leagues to taste success again.
The locked out clubs in England, Spain and Italy have no leverage over the bigger clubs. Do you really think that Stoke vs WBA is sustainable without a Man Utd or Arsenal in the league? They can bitch and moan all they want about it, but they'll literally biting the hand that feeds them.

Your best bet to stop this is the big English clubs being content with the set up they have now, but Man Utd and Liverpool have been making noises for years about selling their rights separate and that doesn't fill me with confidence.

That being said, I'd be more worried about this if I was a small team in the EPL than I would be as Celtic. We're at least self-sufficient when it comes to our revenue. This is being discussed as a way to stop Stoke et al having more spending power than AC Milan.
Edited by J_C_X, 14 Feb 2016, 03:13 PM.
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Adam Smith 11
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J_C_X
14 Feb 2016, 02:23 PM
Dannybhoy95
14 Feb 2016, 04:59 AM
tinytim81
14 Feb 2016, 01:00 AM
There is no maybe about. This is what is going to happen.
No it won't. :lol:

You really think the 'locked out' clubs in England, Spain, Italy ect will stand for it? They won't.

Even if in the remote chance this happens, let's see how often Barca and Bayern trade titles before Man United and the likes want to go back to their native leagues to taste success again.
The locked out clubs in England, Spain and Italy have no leverage over the bigger clubs. Do you really think that Stoke vs WBA is sustainable without a Man Utd or Arsenal in the league? They can bitch and moan all they want about it, but they'll literally biting the hand that feeds them.

Your best bet to stop this is the big English clubs being content with the set up they have now, but Man Utd and Liverpool have been making noises for years about selling their rights separate and that doesn't fill me with confidence.

That being said, I'd be more worried about this if I was a small team in the EPL than I would be as Celtic. We're at least self-sufficient when it comes to our revenue. This is being discussed as a way to stop Stoke et al having more spending power than AC Milan.
Yes the Stokes & WBAs would. This could backfire dramatically on the Top 20.

I would say that the top 20 teams mentioned will be lucky to have 10% of football supporters (first team not "I like them after my first team") in Europe.

Football is about meritocracy, if this opens the door for a free for all the "lockers out" could become the "locked out" should the remaining teams get a creative pyramid system in place there would be a lot more money in the "poor cousin league".

The tribalism of football could mean that those who are locked out boycott the elite pumpkins league. I know I would not contribute to it, I would actively ensure that I avoided anything that would damage Celtic which this league would do.

Football players are mercenary so they will follow the most money eventually. The Asian market will follow the money and best players.

I would say that for the numbers to work there would need to be around 80 team pyramid league.





Edited by Adam Smith 11, 14 Feb 2016, 03:47 PM.
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J_C_X
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Adam Smith 11
14 Feb 2016, 03:44 PM
J_C_X
14 Feb 2016, 02:23 PM
Dannybhoy95
14 Feb 2016, 04:59 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The locked out clubs in England, Spain and Italy have no leverage over the bigger clubs. Do you really think that Stoke vs WBA is sustainable without a Man Utd or Arsenal in the league? They can bitch and moan all they want about it, but they'll literally biting the hand that feeds them.

Your best bet to stop this is the big English clubs being content with the set up they have now, but Man Utd and Liverpool have been making noises for years about selling their rights separate and that doesn't fill me with confidence.

That being said, I'd be more worried about this if I was a small team in the EPL than I would be as Celtic. We're at least self-sufficient when it comes to our revenue. This is being discussed as a way to stop Stoke et al having more spending power than AC Milan.
Yes the Stokes & WBAs would. This could backfire dramatically on the Top 20.

I would say that the top 20 teams mentioned will be lucky to have 10% of football supporters (first team not "I like them after my first team") in Europe.

Football is about meritocracy, if this opens the door for a free for all the "lockers out" could become the "locked out" should the remaining teams get a creative pyramid system in place there would be a lot more money in the "poor cousin league".

The tribalism of football could mean that those who are locked out boycott the elite pumpkins league. I know I would not contribute to it, I would actively ensure that I avoided anything that would damage Celtic which this league would do.

Football players are mercenary so they will follow the most money eventually. The Asian market will follow the money and best players.

I would say that for the numbers to work there would need to be around 80 team pyramid league.





If they don't close the gate, then English football has shown that if you dangle the carrot in front of them they'll agree almost anything.

I think the club's silence on this topic is telling. I wouldn't be surprised if Celtic are being kept fully aware of these developments at UEFA.
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Corky Buczek
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J_C_X
14 Feb 2016, 02:23 PM
Dannybhoy95
14 Feb 2016, 04:59 AM
tinytim81
14 Feb 2016, 01:00 AM
There is no maybe about. This is what is going to happen.
No it won't. :lol:

You really think the 'locked out' clubs in England, Spain, Italy ect will stand for it? They won't.

Even if in the remote chance this happens, let's see how often Barca and Bayern trade titles before Man United and the likes want to go back to their native leagues to taste success again.
The locked out clubs in England, Spain and Italy have no leverage over the bigger clubs. Do you really think that Stoke vs WBA is sustainable without a Man Utd or Arsenal in the league? They can bitch and moan all they want about it, but they'll literally biting the hand that feeds them.

Your best bet to stop this is the big English clubs being content with the set up they have now, but Man Utd and Liverpool have been making noises for years about selling their rights separate and that doesn't fill me with confidence.

That being said, I'd be more worried about this if I was a small team in the EPL than I would be as Celtic. We're at least self-sufficient when it comes to our revenue. This is being discussed as a way to stop Stoke et al having more spending power than AC Milan.
Actually why do you think the EPL negotiates as a league and not individual team ? Thats because the "smaller clubs" told the likes of Man U and Arsenal to do one on it. Don't forget the smaller Scottish clubs reigned ourselves and Sevco in (to an extent) a few years ago by threatening to resign.



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Mrs HF4Ls Biggest fan
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paulfg42
14 Feb 2016, 09:58 AM
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14 Feb 2016, 01:24 AM
PaulWilson
14 Feb 2016, 12:38 AM
As others have said, TV audience share is the deciding factor.
Celtic have limited appeal in this regard due to the size of Scotland.
The driving force for this is coming from Italy, Germany, Spain and France as they see English TV cash dwarfing their clubs.
AC Milan (Who can't even get into Europe at moment) are one of the prime movers in this.
They are looking at 'small' clubs like Stoke who will soon pocket £100m every season from TV.
They think a revamped Champions League with only 'big' clubs from big nations will attract more TV cash and help restore their ability to compete on transfers and wages.
If they are able to push through the changes they want then I fear Celtic will be sidelined due to the fact the club is based in a small, peripheral country.


This is my fear.

We will be in no position to stop it. Who will care what a team from Scotland thinks? The SFA won't be able to stop it either (if they were even bothered).

Who might be able to stop it is all the teams in the English, Italian and German leagues who will be locked out. If it is going to be the same teams from each of leagues locked in (as seems to be the plan) then Liverpool, Spurs etc will be on the outside looking in. They won't wear that.
What could they do about it?
The plan that has been floated is not a European Superleague where Man Utd, Chelsea etc leave the EPL. The plan is for a top team only Champions League. Do you seriously think that the owners of Liverpool, Spurs, Everton etc are going to let four teams from their league go and carve up the CL and start every season with double the cash that they have?

They'll block it or boot them out of the EPL.

And the same will play out in Italy, France and Spain in respect of their leagues.

What I worry will happen is that the champions' qualifying route will go, and it will be five places or more for the big leagues. Or worst still, it will the CL for "big" leagues only and a second tier Europa League for the rest of us. We won't even get a chance to qualify for the pot of gold :(
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J_C_X
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Corky Buczek
14 Feb 2016, 04:59 PM
J_C_X
14 Feb 2016, 02:23 PM
Dannybhoy95
14 Feb 2016, 04:59 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The locked out clubs in England, Spain and Italy have no leverage over the bigger clubs. Do you really think that Stoke vs WBA is sustainable without a Man Utd or Arsenal in the league? They can bitch and moan all they want about it, but they'll literally biting the hand that feeds them.

Your best bet to stop this is the big English clubs being content with the set up they have now, but Man Utd and Liverpool have been making noises for years about selling their rights separate and that doesn't fill me with confidence.

That being said, I'd be more worried about this if I was a small team in the EPL than I would be as Celtic. We're at least self-sufficient when it comes to our revenue. This is being discussed as a way to stop Stoke et al having more spending power than AC Milan.
Actually why do you think the EPL negotiates as a league and not individual team ? Thats because the "smaller clubs" told the likes of Man U and Arsenal to do one on it. Don't forget the smaller Scottish clubs reigned ourselves and Sevco in (to an extent) a few years ago by threatening to resign.



The smaller clubs in Scotland don't rely on us generating 90% of their revenue.

This will have a detrimental effect on the EPL. If Man Utd don't need to win their league to qualify for a revamped CL, then what would be the incentive for them trying in the EPL? They'd put their reserves out in the EPL.
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Bertie Peacock
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J_C_X
14 Feb 2016, 05:28 PM
Corky Buczek
14 Feb 2016, 04:59 PM
J_C_X
14 Feb 2016, 02:23 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Actually why do you think the EPL negotiates as a league and not individual team ? Thats because the "smaller clubs" told the likes of Man U and Arsenal to do one on it. Don't forget the smaller Scottish clubs reigned ourselves and Sevco in (to an extent) a few years ago by threatening to resign.



The smaller clubs in Scotland don't rely on us generating 90% of their revenue.

This will have a detrimental effect on the EPL. If Man Utd don't need to win their league to qualify for a revamped CL, then what would be the incentive for them trying in the EPL? They'd put their reserves out in the EPL.
a very good point.

The EPL would be the new league cup.
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paulfg42
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14 Feb 2016, 05:03 PM
paulfg42
14 Feb 2016, 09:58 AM
Mrs HF4Ls Biggest fan
14 Feb 2016, 01:24 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
What could they do about it?
The plan that has been floated is not a European Superleague where Man Utd, Chelsea etc leave the EPL. The plan is for a top team only Champions League. Do you seriously think that the owners of Liverpool, Spurs, Everton etc are going to let four teams from their league go and carve up the CL and start every season with double the cash that they have?

They'll block it or boot them out of the EPL.
Don't think they have the power to do either.
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GanleyBhoy95
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Will UEFA run along with this or will it be a break away of around 20 clubs to form their own super league which wont be allowed to compete in the champions league?
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Speedy Gonzales
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None of this elite, Super League, top 20 pi$h will matter to me anyway. They can keep their rancid money-grabbing ideas and stick them where the sun don't shine. Football's going to hell in a handcart and I can't wait.

I watch very, very little of both the EPL and the CL as it's sold it's soul. The ego-maniacs that are involved and the mediocre players that lift eye-watering amounts of money do nothing to excite me. Highly paid interchangeable mercenaries who flit between clubs depending on who pays most? It's just plain boring. No-one has any affiliation to these people. I find it impossible to warm to them.

Watching Celtic, or football in general, is a way for me to catch up wi' friends and enjoy a wee day out and have a couple o' beers. What we've seen at Anfield recently sums up what the average fan thinks. Hopefully there'll be a fan-backlash where some sort of normality will resume.

I'll always support Celtic wherever they play. To be as far away from 'the top table' would suit me fine.
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greenwhiteandold
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14 Feb 2016, 07:39 PM
None of this elite, Super League, top 20 pi$h will matter to me anyway. They can keep their rancid money-grabbing ideas and stick them where the sun don't shine. Football's going to hell in a handcart and I can't wait.

I watch very, very little of both the EPL and the CL as it's sold it's soul. The ego-maniacs that are involved and the mediocre players that lift eye-watering amounts of money do nothing to excite me. Highly paid interchangeable mercenaries who flit between clubs depending on who pays most? It's just plain boring. No-one has any affiliation to these people. I find it impossible to warm to them.

Watching Celtic, or football in general, is a way for me to catch up wi' friends and enjoy a wee day out and have a couple o' beers. What we've seen at Anfield recently sums up what the average fan thinks. Hopefully there'll be a fan-backlash where some sort of normality will resume.

I'll always support Celtic wherever they play. To be as far away from 'the top table' would suit me fine.
Good post, just underlines how pointless the shock/horror we must qualify for the champions league every year brigades shouting has become ,like it or not we are to the rich powerbrokers in the sport an irrevelance in a very money orientated business that looks after their own
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Jimmy_mac
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Corky Buczek
14 Feb 2016, 01:15 PM
OK

We know that the likes of Munich and Milan will want this but what every other country and also the non-elite clubs in the England. Germany, Spain etc.

If they go down this route, they may find that the rest of Europe and other clubs within their own country (particularly Spain and Italy) finally grow a pair and tell them where to go.

If you think that English clubs outside the "Top 4" are just going to accept a situation where Leicester win the league but don't get into the CL then I think you'd be surprised at the reaction.
I think fans of teams outside of the top 4 (or however many are given a free pass) would be up in arms over this. Imagine if you were Tottenham, Southampton, Everton, those teams who usually sit outside the top 4 but on occasion could make it in. Where is the incentive? Equally, there is no incentive for Man U et al to get into the top 4 and it would simply devalue the domestic leagues. It would be the same across the other leagues. I can't see the national FAs agreeing to this either.

So it would either be clubs removing themselves from Uefa and their FAs or the top sides automatically qualifying for the CL and nations getting an extra slot to include the 4th/5th place team. I can't see the former happening as it would mean players missing out on playing for national teams. So more likely the latter with the added bonus that the Champions route would be removed.

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One sharp cookie
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A European super league would be a disaster for most of the teams involved. We're talking about clubs who are used to being top of their respective leagues and winning trophies every season. Who would want to tune in for a mid-table Dortmund v Roma clash with absolutely nothing at stake? How many of Man City's current 50,000 match going fans would turn up to see them playing Lyon if Barcelona were already out of sight at the top? The TV and sponsorship money would soon dry up once they realised there was very little appetite for it.
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Hairytoes
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14 Feb 2016, 08:46 PM
A European super league would be a disaster for most of the teams involved. We're talking about clubs who are used to being top of their respective leagues and winning trophies every season. Who would want to tune in for a mid-table Dortmund v Roma clash with absolutely nothing at stake? How many of Man City's current 50,000 match going fans would turn up to see them playing Lyon if Barcelona were already out of sight at the top? The TV and sponsorship money would soon dry up once they realised there was very little appetite for it.
I guess enough is never enough for money men.

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Farkakt AlteKaker
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tinytim81
14 Feb 2016, 01:00 AM
PaulWilson
14 Feb 2016, 12:38 AM
As others have said, TV audience share is the deciding factor.
Celtic have limited appeal in this regard due to the size of Scotland.
The driving force for this is coming from Italy, Germany, Spain and France as they see English TV cash dwarfing their clubs.
AC Milan (Who can't even get into Europe at moment) are one of the prime movers in this.
They are looking at 'small' clubs like Stoke who will soon pocket £100m every season from TV.
They think a revamped Champions League with only 'big' clubs from big nations will attract more TV cash and help restore their ability to compete on transfers and wages.
If they are able to push through the changes they want then I fear Celtic will be sidelined due to the fact the club is based in a small, peripheral country.


There is no maybe about. This is what is going to happen.
Yes we are a wee piddly country but if you bring a Barcelona, AC Milan to Celtic Park you get 60000!! You also get every supporters club and Irish pub bursting at the seems. We also take a huge vocal following with us.Lets not forget Seville. We are, historically, a huge name with hugely recognised colours. We are a big draw. You wouldn't believe it at the moment though.

Anyway this is all bollocks and will be a very unlikely scenario.
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Mrs HF4Ls Biggest fan
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Farkakt AlteKaker
14 Feb 2016, 09:40 PM
tinytim81
14 Feb 2016, 01:00 AM
PaulWilson
14 Feb 2016, 12:38 AM
As others have said, TV audience share is the deciding factor.
Celtic have limited appeal in this regard due to the size of Scotland.
The driving force for this is coming from Italy, Germany, Spain and France as they see English TV cash dwarfing their clubs.
AC Milan (Who can't even get into Europe at moment) are one of the prime movers in this.
They are looking at 'small' clubs like Stoke who will soon pocket £100m every season from TV.
They think a revamped Champions League with only 'big' clubs from big nations will attract more TV cash and help restore their ability to compete on transfers and wages.
If they are able to push through the changes they want then I fear Celtic will be sidelined due to the fact the club is based in a small, peripheral country.


There is no maybe about. This is what is going to happen.
Yes we are a wee piddly country but if you bring a Barcelona, AC Milan to Celtic Park you get 60000!! You also get every supporters club and Irish pub bursting at the seems. We also take a huge vocal following with us.Lets not forget Seville. We are, historically, a huge name with hugely recognised colours. We are a big draw. You wouldn't believe it at the moment though.

Anyway this is all bollocks and will be a very unlikely scenario.
We could get 160k at games and it would still be irrelevant.

It is all about TV audience/subscriptions and advertising revenue.
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