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The Board - general discussion (including Res 12); notes from the AGM
Topic Started: 15 Jul 2014, 12:03 AM (1,414,750 Views)
Quiet Assasin
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..for the maintenance of dinner tables for the children and the unemployed
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...or you could say that McCann bought over a business that hadn't realised it's earning potential and hadn't utilised its biggest income stream. By building a new stadium Fergus McCann's regime added massive value to Celtic as a business as it grew the client base to a regular 50,000+ and a culture of up front, regular payment was created. The Celtic that Desmond bought into had probably done most of the growing it was going to do already. Desmond gambled on the income stream of the English Premier League and Sky TV taking us to the next level and failed.
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lepetitmerde
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Quiet Assasin
5 Jan 2016, 06:21 PM
...or you could say that McCann bought over a business that hadn't realised it's earning potential and hadn't utilised its biggest income stream. By building a new stadium Fergus McCann's regime added massive value to Celtic as a business as it grew the client base to a regular 50,000+ and a culture of up front, regular payment was created. The Celtic that Desmond bought into had probably done most of the growing it was going to do already. Desmond gambled on the income stream of the English Premier League and Sky TV taking us to the next level and failed.
Fergus built it - Lawwell and dd are slowly destroying it to the point it's going to take a huge investment to repair the damage
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georgiesleftpeg
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Far be it from my natural position to defend the carpetbagging Desmond's position, but his initial involvement was a 4m investment into the original share issue that salvaged the club.
What price he paid per share (and whether he traded with those shares while the price of them rocketed), who knows, but between that original investment and the subsequent further share issues, he's invested a very small percentage of his overall wealth portfolio into the Celtic.
If he were to sell, at todays price (even with a discount), be sure he'd be walking away up on the deal.
Edited by georgiesleftpeg, 5 Jan 2016, 07:04 PM.
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greenwhiteandold
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Gerinho
5 Jan 2016, 05:18 PM
greenwhiteandold
5 Jan 2016, 04:19 PM
Midfield Maestro
5 Jan 2016, 03:20 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
If he`s not in for the money and it looks like he`s not in for the supporting part what is he in for then ?
Probably many reasons
i can only think of two but you obviously can think of many more, would you care to share ?
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Dantebhoy
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greenwhiteandold
5 Jan 2016, 04:19 PM
Midfield Maestro
5 Jan 2016, 03:20 PM
QualityStreet1970
5 Jan 2016, 02:45 PM

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If Desmond had been looking for a safe bet, he wouldn't have invested in a football club.
If he`s not in for the money and it looks like he`s not in for the supporting part what is he in for then ?
Status maybe, like owning an expensive painting or a bunch of old cars. Something to talk about with friends while playing golf.

It doesn't seem like a great business investment for him. Maybe he won't lose money, but he probably could've made much more by keeping it in the bank.

We can't know for sure without looking at the books, annual reports don't tell the full story, some owners penny pinch a club and it doesn't even show up in annual reports. But what we see in annual reports, it doesn't seem like DD is getting out a lot, maybe some ~200k a year in salary and dividends for convertible loans, it's a poor return for spending tens of millions, much of it while pound was much stronger than today, it doesn't even cover inflation.
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Dantebhoy
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Quiet Assasin
5 Jan 2016, 06:21 PM
...or you could say that McCann bought over a business that hadn't realised it's earning potential and hadn't utilised its biggest income stream. By building a new stadium Fergus McCann's regime added massive value to Celtic as a business as it grew the client base to a regular 50,000+ and a culture of up front, regular payment was created. The Celtic that Desmond bought into had probably done most of the growing it was going to do already. Desmond gambled on the income stream of the English Premier League and Sky TV taking us to the next level and failed.
Yep, that's a fair point. Maybe Desmond did hope for it to be a good investment, years ago, then Scottish football was left far behind and Celtic door to EPL or TV money never opened.
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frankebhoy
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adammce
5 Jan 2016, 05:15 PM
Asgardstreasure
5 Jan 2016, 11:42 AM
frankebhoy
5 Jan 2016, 12:59 AM
Lawwell says the board are managing decline ! the only thing that's not declining at Celtic is his financial package .
Celtic should be light years ahead of sevco but look at the state of us , all due to lack of direction and ambition from the board .
We have needlessly lost the revenue from Champions League football on far too many occasions under his direction ,
a bankrupt sevco pipped us to a number of titles and gained the serious cash while we were messing about trying to save a few hundred grand . (Fletcher for example).
any other CEO would have been fired , instead this guy walks away with a £20 grand a week package........ no questions asked .
Sevco has never pipped us to a title as they have never competed with us for a title.
Rangers (IL) did manage a few titles during the years which led to their liquidation however they were at that time fielding a team using tens of millions of pounds of tax payers' money.
I think we are light years ahead of sevco. Sevco is already several million in debt and their stadium is falling apart at the seams. They are facing numerous law suits and will be subject to an onerous merchandising contract for at least 7 years. The sale of assets to sevco back in 2012 is now at risk of being set aside should guilty verdicts lead to that transaction being declared the proceeds of crime. Sir Craig also has a legal challenge ongoing in relation to the sale of assets.
Sevco has made a multi million pound loss during every year since it was created. It survives on loans. It was kicked off the stock market and noone will touch it. The SFA is facing a legal challenge over its decision to declare the GASL a fit and proper person. It hardly needs to be said that the SFA will find it virtually impossible to justify that decision. Basically the rule book was tossed aside so as to allow the GASL in the door.
Going forward Celtic have no litigation concerns at all. Our Chairman is not a convicted criminal. We operate a disciplined financial structure. Title to our stadium and training ground is not in dispute. There are no ongoing criminal proceeding against former board members. Our stadium is in great shape.
However much we may complain about performances and results over the last while, we should not lose sight of the fact that Celtic is one of the best run clubs in the game with a history going back to 1888.
Sevco is an effing basket which is just 3 years old and cannot pay its way.
So we should be thankful that our club isn't mismanaged to the point of bankruptcy? YAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSS.

To be honest mate, reading big essays about how we compare to some diddy team with shampooe views on the world is utterly pointless. We all know everything you posted; it's not some "oh aye!" moment that most of us never considered.

It's just irrelevant - they were cheating bams, so why should we give ourselves a big pat on the back? Because our board find more creative and genuinely legal ways to rip the piss out the fans?

Sorry but it's not worth celebrating. At all. If you can cheer yourself up from the footballing poverty that Celtic currently resides in by writing big essays about how effed they are, then I'm delighted for you. Sadly, most of us aren't so easily pleased.

The ONLY good thing about the way Celtic is run is that we'll never go bust. I don't mean to have a go at you personally but way too many people use this as some kind of example of how well-governed we are. We might not be run by Dave King, but the people sitting on the board today are about as far from what we expect from Celtic board members as you can get. I'd rather concentrate on finding a way to fix Celtic' serious structural problems rather than giving these people a free pass because they aren't dodgy :lol: .
:thumbsup:
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QualityStreet1970
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Quiet Assasin
5 Jan 2016, 06:21 PM
...or you could say that McCann bought over a business that hadn't realised it's earning potential and hadn't utilised its biggest income stream. By building a new stadium Fergus McCann's regime added massive value to Celtic as a business as it grew the client base to a regular 50,000+ and a culture of up front, regular payment was created. The Celtic that Desmond bought into had probably done most of the growing it was going to do already. Desmond gambled on the income stream of the English Premier League and Sky TV taking us to the next level and failed.
When you put it that way, I kinda feel sorry for Desmond.

Aye, right.

"McCann bought a business that hadn't realised it's earning potential..." Factually true, although you seem to have omitted the fact before Fergus' cheque cleared, the bank was ready to shut the club down! That whole thing made for such a tempting investment opportunity that McCann was our only hope. No other businessmen were lining up to "grow the client base" (?!) etc. etc.

To say that Celtic hadn't "utilised" its biggest income stream is beyond disingenuous. You "utilise" an overdraft facility. You utilise things that already exist. McCann had to rebuild the stadium and the team on a budget that obliged him to make a lot of unpopular decisions, and run a tight ship before he could "utilise" anything other than his own hard-earned!. There was absolutely no guarantee that everything would come together as it did. McCann's sweat equity and professionalism was a key factor in Celtic's return to viability, and beyond.

"The Celtic that Desmond bought into had probably done most of the growing it was going to do already."

In what sense? S/T sales were maxed out, certainly; but there's a lot more to the next stage of growth than EPL pipe-dreams. (By the way: Desmond gambled everything on Celtic gaining admittance to the EPL?! Now, such a flight of fancy would make the man a dreamer, a cock-eyed optimist with champagne wishes and caviar dreams. That's hardly the modus operandi that made him one of the wealthiest man in Ireland. And he did not win his reputation as a Gombeen man by investing millions in projects, then just hoping that sheer, random luck [in this case the whim of Rupert Murdoch/Sky] would give him a return on his money. (Go back and look at the speculation about the possibility of Celtic moving south, and tell me if that scenario ever got beyond the "informal discussions" stage. More importantly, was there ever any real sense that anything like a majority of EPL clubs would agree to it. Did any English clubs ever confirm that Celtic would have their backing? What was the most concrete development overall, as regards Celtic's chances of playing in England. Anything there that would make Desmond "gamble the income stream"? I don't think so--but if there's evidence to suggest otherwise, fair enough.

We've seen glimpses over the last 12-15 years of the ways in which Celtic could still have grown even after all the season books had been sold. We've done it sporadically, but we've never been run well enough to do it consistently; and with the combination of Lawwell/Desmond/Deila, who knows when we'll finally get to see the club run by people who can not only balance the books, but implement some kind of coherent and competent strategy on the football side. We have a lot of ground to make up, and a lot of damage to repair, but if everybody starts to feel like the club is back on track, we'll get there soon enough. I'm not expecting miracles--just a reasonable period of stability, and a sense that the people in charge aren't just winging it.

Anyway, back to the growth... CL participation three years out of every five, say? (Or whatever fits in with the new business plan.) We've already shown that this can be a realistic aim for Celtic, and that it doesn't require vast expenditure. Another thing we should expect is to see the club doing a methodical and professional job of scouting "unfashionable markets" for young players with the clear potential to play in Europe's bigger leagues after they've gained a few years' experience at Celtic. Having the world's wealthiest league on our doorstep is a mixed blessing, but when it comes to selling players for top dollar, it's a Godsend. Players like Wanyama and Virgil should be the rule, not the exception. I'm not talking in terms of price, because there are far too many variables involved there. (Although the EPL's new mega-deal isn't exactly likely to shrink the kind of transfer fees we can get when selling players to English clubs.)

In the club's current chaotic state, we've ended up rushing to sell any player who fits the aforementioned criteria--just to compensate for our successive failures in CL qualification. The destabilising effects of this panicky short-term-ism are painfully obvious.

Having said all of that... there obviously won't be any major overhaul/rethink at CP until DD strolls off into the sunset, with PL (hopefully) carrying his clubs. And yes, just as there are many people who'd be far better for Celtic than Desmond, there are plenty of others who could make us long for the days of benign neglect.

[EDIT: human error. A lot of it.]
Edited by QualityStreet1970, 6 Jan 2016, 11:52 AM.
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Quiet Assasin
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Aye. I really meant feel sorry for the billionaire Dermot Desmond. Calm yerself.

I am talking in cold terms about growth, income and expenditure very deliberately. That was the whole point. The point was that Desmond didn't take on some easy money investment since everything was already in place, as was stated. The McCann investment had high risk but also had a damn more reward to come from it.

As for Desmond and the EPL, he was still talking about it in August. He's dropped some loose change on Celtic in the hope that one day it'll be a nice wee trinket for him to show off should we manage to get into the EPL. Other than that I really don't think he gives a eff.
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greenwhiteandold
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frankebhoy
6 Jan 2016, 12:18 AM
adammce
5 Jan 2016, 05:15 PM
Asgardstreasure
5 Jan 2016, 11:42 AM

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So we should be thankful that our club isn't mismanaged to the point of bankruptcy? YAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSS.

To be honest mate, reading big essays about how we compare to some diddy team with shampooe views on the world is utterly pointless. We all know everything you posted; it's not some "oh aye!" moment that most of us never considered.

It's just irrelevant - they were cheating bams, so why should we give ourselves a big pat on the back? Because our board find more creative and genuinely legal ways to rip the piss out the fans?

Sorry but it's not worth celebrating. At all. If you can cheer yourself up from the footballing poverty that Celtic currently resides in by writing big essays about how effed they are, then I'm delighted for you. Sadly, most of us aren't so easily pleased.

The ONLY good thing about the way Celtic is run is that we'll never go bust. I don't mean to have a go at you personally but way too many people use this as some kind of example of how well-governed we are. We might not be run by Dave King, but the people sitting on the board today are about as far from what we expect from Celtic board members as you can get. I'd rather concentrate on finding a way to fix Celtic' serious structural problems rather than giving these people a free pass because they aren't dodgy :lol: .
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup: me too
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georgiesleftpeg
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"giving these people a free pass because they aren't dodgy"

You've gotta be havin a larf ;)

Have a look at the definition of Gombeen Man as used in a post above and then go google our moustachio-waxer-extraordinario, especially in relation to dealings with Taoiseach Haughey :boik:
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QualityStreet1970
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Quiet Assasin
6 Jan 2016, 12:01 PM
The point was that Desmond didn't take on some easy money investment since everything was already in place, as was stated. The McCann investment had high risk but also had a damn more reward to come from it.
Beg to differ on Desmond and the Premiership. I don't like the guy, but he's not an idiot. He may have had hopes that Celtic could one day move south, but do you seriously think he's the guy who bets millions on his hopes and dreams?

My point is that, after McCann had saved Celtic from financial meltdown, rebuilt CP and filled the place with season-book holders, the club represented as safe a bet as you're likely to find in this "funny old game" of ours. I'm not really sure if you're trying to suggest that Desmond would have had equally appealing investment opportunities in football; or whether you're trying to claim that Desmond was taking on a high-risk proposition when he invested in a debt-free club that was selling out its new stadium (the biggest in the country) for whole seasons at a time.

The most serious risk that Lawwell has encountered at Celtic is the risk that's been created by his own (complete lack of) vision for Celtic, and by the arrogance/complacency of his right-hand "yes" man. Those same factors are responsible for preventing the kind of growth I referred to the other day.

Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

(Having said that, it's not impossible that Deila will stay on and, with expert guidance from Peter Lawwell, lead us into next season's CL with a Celtic side that plays good football. Not technically impossible--but in the eyes of most Celtic supporters, highly improbable.)
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Gerinho
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greenwhiteandold
5 Jan 2016, 07:10 PM
Gerinho
5 Jan 2016, 05:18 PM
greenwhiteandold
5 Jan 2016, 04:19 PM

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Probably many reasons
i can only think of two but you obviously can think of many more, would you care to share ?
Ive no idea, never met him but its very unlikely its for money
Edited by Gerinho, 9 Jan 2016, 04:00 PM.
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georgiesleftpeg
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"Our policy is not building a Celtic team - to win domestic honours and participate in the Champions League - but we are instead creating a shop window".

"My biggest issue with the whole situation is our desire to whore our players out as soon as they have a decent transfer value, which effectively means we'll always be a team on the cusp of something rather than actually fulfilling the potential we're investing in".

Two points, well made by two different posters, that a lot of the supporters have been thinking for a good long while.
We are continuously having our noses rubbed in it, regarding our inabilities to attract and pay a certain quality of player (Championship, now, by the sounds of it :cuckoo: ).
Yet the scriptwriter of this malady, is happily pocketing his obscene bonuses, whilst carrying out his K.P.I. of costing our billionaire landlord, not one thin dime :boik:

Indeed; envision that Shangri-La were to be achieved, and we had a team on the park fit to wear the hoops, and capable of competing in the knock-out rounds of the CL.
We all know, deep-down, that under this construct of Celtic Football Player Trading Company PLC , that the side would be dismantled in it's infancy and we'd be back to scratching around and no 'number one with a bullet :ynwa: '

Meanwhile, in a separate thread, we are sending good wishes to an esteemed author of books on our club.
Unfortunately now, while there may well be moments of 'glory' (however fleeting or shallow) there are certainly very few, if any, 'dreams'.

Don't they realise, or don't they care, that the malaise in the boardrooms of CP (both football and PLC) is knocking the stuffing out of the clubs greatest natural asset?


Edited by georgiesleftpeg, 9 Jan 2016, 08:12 PM.
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nowonder
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Celtic's catch 22 is getting players good enough to play in the CL but if they are good enough we can't keep them to build a team that's good enough to play in the CL.The model is flawed but it's not as if there's a more workable one available.
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AntonRogansRightBoot
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Ticket pricing is ridiculous. The Accies game that was postponed, and now rearranged for a Tuesday night is still £26 a ticket. No wonder the ground's almost empty for league games at that price.
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Pussyfoot
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nowonder
9 Jan 2016, 07:53 PM
Celtic's catch 22 is getting players good enough to play in the CL but if they are good enough we can't keep them to build a team that's good enough to play in the CL.The model is flawed but it's not as if there's a more workable one available.
We did have it sussed to an extent for a year or two but the game has moved on & ran away from us again. We have turned from a well run, lesser budgeted side defeating teams with higher transfer & wage allowances than we have to a reduced budget team losing out to clubs with lesser tariffs than our own.

It helps having a manager like Strachan who could accomplish those type of feats, the clowns that wanted him gone should never be entertained again, unless of course they feel they have been more entertained since his departure.
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Klepton
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Pussyfoot
10 Jan 2016, 01:42 AM
nowonder
9 Jan 2016, 07:53 PM
Celtic's catch 22 is getting players good enough to play in the CL but if they are good enough we can't keep them to build a team that's good enough to play in the CL.The model is flawed but it's not as if there's a more workable one available.
We did have it sussed to an extent for a year or two but the game has moved on & ran away from us again. We have turned from a well run, lesser budgeted side defeating teams with higher transfer & wage allowances than we have to a reduced budget team losing out to clubs with lesser tariffs than our own.

It helps having a manager like Strachan who could accomplish those type of feats, the clowns that wanted him gone should never be entertained again, unless of course they feel they have been more entertained since his departure.
Scouting has to take a fair portion of the blame too. The number of utterly shampoo strikers we've pissed money away on over the last 4-5 years is unreal.
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frankebhoy
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Pussyfoot
10 Jan 2016, 01:42 AM
nowonder
9 Jan 2016, 07:53 PM
Celtic's catch 22 is getting players good enough to play in the CL but if they are good enough we can't keep them to build a team that's good enough to play in the CL.The model is flawed but it's not as if there's a more workable one available.
We did have it sussed to an extent for a year or two but the game has moved on & ran away from us again. We have turned from a well run, lesser budgeted side defeating teams with higher transfer & wage allowances than we have to a reduced budget team losing out to clubs with lesser tariffs than our own.

It helps having a manager like Strachan who could accomplish those type of feats, the clowns that wanted him gone should never be entertained again, unless of course they feel they have been more entertained since his departure.
Yeah like he done well after he left Celtic , both in England and Scotland . to think he wants to revamp Scottish football !!
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Pussyfoot
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Klepton
10 Jan 2016, 02:17 AM
Pussyfoot
10 Jan 2016, 01:42 AM
nowonder
9 Jan 2016, 07:53 PM
Celtic's catch 22 is getting players good enough to play in the CL but if they are good enough we can't keep them to build a team that's good enough to play in the CL.The model is flawed but it's not as if there's a more workable one available.
We did have it sussed to an extent for a year or two but the game has moved on & ran away from us again. We have turned from a well run, lesser budgeted side defeating teams with higher transfer & wage allowances than we have to a reduced budget team losing out to clubs with lesser tariffs than our own.

It helps having a manager like Strachan who could accomplish those type of feats, the clowns that wanted him gone should never be entertained again, unless of course they feel they have been more entertained since his departure.
Scouting has to take a fair portion of the blame too. The number of utterly shampoo strikers we've pissed money away on over the last 4-5 years is unreal.
Not just strikers, add Loans and way too many abstract Midfielders to the mix (though curiously not one who can tackle), it's a heady mix of failure.

Strachan got the job done with the poorly scouted Sno and Donati. What we would give now though for the KDS maligned talents of Hartley and Robson ("aye but pyoor pish against Barca", fact is now we don't have a player fit to be on the same park as the Catalans never mind score) and a Manager who knew how to get a result in Europe now and again.

Be sure not to listen to those who are careless and stupid when they wish for things.
Edited by Pussyfoot, 10 Jan 2016, 02:37 AM.
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