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The Board - general discussion (including Res 12); notes from the AGM
Topic Started: 15 Jul 2014, 12:03 AM (1,414,811 Views)
Dannybhoy95
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Champions Again Olé, Olé
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remy mcswain
1 Oct 2015, 11:23 AM
No. We are a football club.

The CEO should not be earning more than the top players or the manager.

We have got it seriously wrong here.
Am I right in saying Lawwell makes more than any PL club chief exec out-with your Chelsea, Man City type clubs?
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Adam Smith 11
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Contract up for renewal, now on a diet and trying harder.
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embdysman
1 Oct 2015, 11:12 AM
remy mcswain
1 Oct 2015, 10:49 AM
FatherSpliffmas
1 Oct 2015, 10:13 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
A package of £1m is ludicrous for the size of our business.
Does that opinion change when you compare it to what the players take home?

It's not a normal business with a turnover of £50m-£100m. No other type of business with a wages to revenue ratio like football.
In business terms though wages are just a resource the same as materials and overheads. The ratio of these resources may dictate how much time a CEO would devote to each resource, it does not change the fact that we are a low profit SME with the potential of a big payday.

Reasons I can think of for over inflated CEO wage:

Football is part of celebrity world and drives a celebrity premium.
Hierarchy determines that the guy at the top of the tree must be paid the more than everyone else ( your point )
PL has, in DD's eyes anyway, subject matter expertise and or unique skills in transfer negotiations.
Access to photographs.
Edited by Adam Smith 11, 1 Oct 2015, 11:34 AM.
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Mackin
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The Ginty McGinty genius
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Dannybhoy95
1 Oct 2015, 11:32 AM
remy mcswain
1 Oct 2015, 11:23 AM
No. We are a football club.

The CEO should not be earning more than the top players or the manager.

We have got it seriously wrong here.
Am I right in saying Lawwell makes more than any PL club chief exec out-with your Chelsea, Man City type clubs?
The last time I checked he was paid more than the top 6 or 7 EPL CEOs. That was a couple of years ago though, and their payments may have increased with the increased TV deals etc.
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aldo
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And that's the way we like it...
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Lawwell isn't employed as an accountant, he's the the CEO, the Top Man. He's the one who is supposed to guide and inspire his Directors as they strive to develop strategies which will assist the club achieve success on and off the park, but it's become as plain as the nose on your face that football 'success' is restricted to winning SPL "by just one point", to quote Desmond yesterday. That reality is set to continue until we come up against a domestic opponent who can match Celtic's spending power, and that is probably a few years away, so we're stuck with this raw deal until Lawwell either has an epiphany or is found out.

I'm not hopeful of the epiphany, but he could well have his wings clipped if Ronny flops - Sevilliano has stated a number of times that would be the last straw for Desmond, who wanted Keane/Larrson/Arnold Palmer - or when there is no more family silver to flog to disguise CL failure. He'll get burned when the number of crap players we sign gets to the point that the few half decent ones we still have can't win points on their own, and when season ticket holders can't stomach the thought of taking the seat they have paid for, for other turgid 90 minutes.

Rather than willing the manager to fail or stockpiling more sh ite players, I'd rather we direct protest at the guilty party in the only language he understands.


Edited by aldo, 1 Oct 2015, 12:18 PM.
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fatboab
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Just before the Dawn

aldo
1 Oct 2015, 12:15 PM
Sevilliano has stated a number of times that would be the last straw for Desmond,
where is the bold Sevilliano? :suspect: He's usually all over this discussion.
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Lobey Dosser
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idyllwild
1 Oct 2015, 11:16 AM
Adam Smith 11
1 Oct 2015, 10:57 AM
idyllwild
1 Oct 2015, 10:25 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
It must be about context though.

Creativity cannot thrive in a highly regulated closed market. Stick a dreamer in that type of environment and carnage ensues.

It is depressing but all creative avenues have been exhausted in the current circumstances, these circumstances have been prevalent for 15 years and their has not been an original idea even on fans forums for a decade.

DD is dreaming of the EPL and look at the abuse he is getting.

Strategically we are stuffed.

The creativity we need is in changing this everything else is tantamount to rearranging the deck chairs.

Don't get me wrong but finding a great coach would help in the short term but they would be off at the first smell of a bigger job if we are being realistic.
Agree up to a point, and I'm not sure how far we're going off-topic, but the CEO should be able to come up with the a strategy, and ways in which it might be implemented. The accountants and administrators will then review it for real-world feasibility.

Our strategy is incredibly basic and focused solely on financials, which should never be the case outwith a financial organisation. Like Newcastle, we are a company whose primary business is trading footballers. That's the result of our having an accountant in charge. The CEO clearly has no performance objectives beyond the financial ones.

The Bayern model is perfect, irrespective of the size of club. A football person in charge, and a board of administrators to oversee things. Having said that, most of our footballers seem wary of engaging their brains during their career, so probably aren't best placed to run things.
Given that the club is under the controlling influence of a highly successful, real world, billionaire, as is commonly allowed on here, why does he not ensure that the CEO's annual objectives include product performance as well as financial outcomes?

Or does no one on the board care much so long as the numbers look good ?

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Terry
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I never thought much about Dermot Desmond. He was just someone who was there and I could have cared less if he was to stay or go. But when I read this morning that he thinks Celtic is a better team than this time last year I gotta think he needs to go with the men in the white coats. Is he losing his mind or does he think we have lost ours to believe such s***e. Suppose he thinks since PL gets away with it and some of the support sold their souls for a 'fist pump', he can get in on the act too
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bubba
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Getting on a bit
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Dannybhoy95
1 Oct 2015, 11:32 AM
remy mcswain
1 Oct 2015, 11:23 AM
No. We are a football club.

The CEO should not be earning more than the top players or the manager.

We have got it seriously wrong here.
Am I right in saying Lawwell makes more than any PL club chief exec out-with your Chelsea, Man City type clubs?
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/apr/29/premier-league-finances-club-by-club

Last set of figures I could find. Some missing and it's a bit vague in places but it's pretty clear that even for a football club, lawwell is massively over paid for the size of the business
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Estadio nacional
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Lobey Dosser
1 Oct 2015, 12:23 PM
idyllwild
1 Oct 2015, 11:16 AM
Adam Smith 11
1 Oct 2015, 10:57 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Agree up to a point, and I'm not sure how far we're going off-topic, but the CEO should be able to come up with the a strategy, and ways in which it might be implemented. The accountants and administrators will then review it for real-world feasibility.

Our strategy is incredibly basic and focused solely on financials, which should never be the case outwith a financial organisation. Like Newcastle, we are a company whose primary business is trading footballers. That's the result of our having an accountant in charge. The CEO clearly has no performance objectives beyond the financial ones.

The Bayern model is perfect, irrespective of the size of club. A football person in charge, and a board of administrators to oversee things. Having said that, most of our footballers seem wary of engaging their brains during their career, so probably aren't best placed to run things.
Given that the club is under the controlling influence of a highly successful, real world, billionaire, as is commonly allowed on here, why does he not ensure that the CEO's annual objectives include product performance as well as financial outcomes?

Or does no one on the board care much so long as the numbers look good ?

Thats about it, no football ambition, no proper system to get young players in and develop and build upon success (our only real way to progress towards competing in CL), just ticking over staying just above local level.

That 'win the league by one point' Aldo quoted above demonstrates what has been discussed here the past few months, if that's what DD has set football target at PL has an open goal to downsize and maximise his bonus.
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Tiny Tim
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Lobey Dosser
1 Oct 2015, 12:23 PM
idyllwild
1 Oct 2015, 11:16 AM
Adam Smith 11
1 Oct 2015, 10:57 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Agree up to a point, and I'm not sure how far we're going off-topic, but the CEO should be able to come up with the a strategy, and ways in which it might be implemented. The accountants and administrators will then review it for real-world feasibility.

Our strategy is incredibly basic and focused solely on financials, which should never be the case outwith a financial organisation. Like Newcastle, we are a company whose primary business is trading footballers. That's the result of our having an accountant in charge. The CEO clearly has no performance objectives beyond the financial ones.

The Bayern model is perfect, irrespective of the size of club. A football person in charge, and a board of administrators to oversee things. Having said that, most of our footballers seem wary of engaging their brains during their career, so probably aren't best placed to run things.
Given that the club is under the controlling influence of a highly successful, real world, billionaire, as is commonly allowed on here, why does he not ensure that the CEO's annual objectives include product performance as well as financial outcomes?

Or does no one on the board care much so long as the numbers look good ?

WHat if DD has a different definition of "product performance".
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Hoops For Me All The Way
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We are supposed to be a selling club. We have been told that often enough.

Now however, we have no-one to sell next season, of any great value.

I'm going to forget about Sevco, because we have been told by our Board that we can exist alone and they plan accordingly. We would get 2/3 home games against them with an extra 15,000- 20,000 at each game. (Which is not a big deal financially). If they do return, we will not have 55,000 approx season ticket holders. Eventually, we might get a better TV deal. However, there is a lot still to happen with Sevco, so we cannot assume they would be a permanent feature in the SPFL, or something else might happen. But as Desmond says, new technology might bring additional revenue and that is something that can be done without them. Our game is not about cheats and rewarding financial doping and breaking the laws of the land. It is about all the other teams who have cut their cloth and tried to budget properly and played to the rules.

The board/ coaches and scouting team (maybe new scouts are required) need to plan over a 3 year period, staggering contracts. In addition, some signings need to immediately step into the playing team, for possible sale down the road. In tandem we sign development type players who can gain experience and step up once others are sold. There is no point selling a player then being held to ransom trying to buy another to replace him. It needs to be planned. Otherwise it is just a lottery and we can give up attempting to reaching CL Group Stages. The crowds will dwindle then.

The concept is just to establish a rolling programme within the club. It's nothing new and something we have don to great effect in previous years.

We can't rush out and buy 4/5/6 players in the summer and expect them to get us through the CL Qualifiers. You can't get them to gel or bed in or quickly form an effective system with others. Prices are also higher, as are wages.

Winter transfer window is severely limited with certain types of player available. During this window, players generally have a problem with their club and the club are desperate to get rid of. We have discussed this for years.

CL income is far too big for us to ignore and we have wasted 2 seasons, leading to reduced gates and less of a profile. Making it more difficult to attract players who we might develop and who might have aspirations to use us to move elsewhere.
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CELTBHOY1988
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Getting on a bit
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The only way things will change of we lose the league or look likely too.
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katlegend
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The absence of Sevco has been allowed to become a negative when in fact we should have benifited from it greatly. It should have been seen as greatly increased opportunities to qualify for the CL groups. Our gross mismanagement has cost us at least 2 years CL funds this time around & it cost us even more than that when we allowed a dying huns to win 3 successive titles after the infamous Willo Flood Window.
We've had 2 successive seasons in the CL to build on along with the sales of Wanyama,Hooper, Forster & Matthews among others. We should now have a team easily capable of getting buy the likes of Legia,Maribor & Malmo.
However the self inflicted damage of the last 3 disgraceful Summer Windows along with our cheap option managerial appointment leaves us in a very difficult situation now. The team is rubbish & all areas need strengthened. We also need to bring in a decent manager to oversee all this. Having missed out on the vital CL funds for the last two seasons & having no players of any quality left to sell now we would require to take on significant debt know to bring in the number of decent players that we undoubtably require.
Meanwhile our CE is happily counting his bonuses despite his gross mismanagement.
Edited by katlegend, 1 Oct 2015, 02:50 PM.
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sevilliano
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Jeez how did i miss this !! spending too much time with bleedin accountants

The strategy is obviously right given the environment

The issue is that in corporate BS mode DD is not an active value investor :lol:

If he was he'd be going apeshampoo at the decline in value and the failure to better the environment

So its the implementation of the policy and the failure at strategic level

DD has been saying EPL for 20 years now and we're no closer and its damaging us (altho not PL) more

His CEO should be doing the basics right at Celtic in creating value and if he doesn't get the downside of being booted for failure to get to cl for 5 out of last 7 years he shouldn't be getting upside of a remuneration package equivalent to those at top levels in EPL

We are a football club and that needs to be at the core from quality of academy to quality of coaching to scouting to first team - on no basis do i see Celtic anywhere near the forefront - its muddling along selling players to the EPL and declining

It should be relatively easy to alter the priorities of investment and given the power DD has to stick with this for a number of years - better youth development, better scouting, better coaches and ultimately the end produce will be better

On a strategic level PL is king of the pygmies in the SFA and the SPFL and he should be applauded for how he has managed to get to pre-eminent position in scottish football - we as a club have never had so much power but that said

Where is the British cup promised behind the scenes where are any innovative achemes for cross border tournaments - for the love of god Fergus appreciated 20 years ago that sometimes you have to challenge the status quo to deliver what we need

Celtic is not a priority in DD's life altho there is no doubt from his investment to date there is a love of the club

As others notably FB, Idyllwild and murphio have said the issue is the need for a new CEO - DD says in the 2010 interview EPL in 10 yrs - tis like an effin mantra but just saying it doesn;t make it so

He also says drive and energy are the key to his success - whilst i may see that in RD (not sure on ability) i certainly don't see that in the CEO - i see complacency and not a little arrogance

Time for a change DD
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QualityStreet1970
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Hoops For Me All The Way
1 Oct 2015, 01:58 PM

CL income is far too big for us to ignore and we have wasted 2 seasons, leading to reduced gates and less of a profile. Making it more difficult to attract players who we might develop and who might have aspirations to use us to move elsewhere.
Superb post, sir. Perfectly sums up the "low-risk" strategy that could put us in a dangerous downward spiral. I'm trying to be positive here, and assuming that we're not already in the downward spiral...
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fatboab
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Just before the Dawn

Sevilliano.... ^^^^^^late , but welcome nonetheless :thumbsup:
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LoveCeltic
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bigbadpaul
3 Sep 2015, 01:13 PM
sevilliano
3 Sep 2015, 12:18 PM
Deebhoy
3 Sep 2015, 11:22 AM
The Board are good at getting a lot of things right. Financially we are in cracking shape, work done around the stadium is excellent, development of Lennoxtown, buy players and sell for big profits etc. However the biggest issue is how the club is run at a football level and this is where they fail dismally. I absolutely believe the most important person running the football sdie of things is the manager. However we don't have a manager - we have a coach who appears to have close to zero input into signings. Peter Lawwell is a football supporter but he has never been a footballer. He and other cronies on the Board believe they know what it is like to be a football manager. They believe they know more about football than our coach. This is fundamentally the problem with our football club. The people making the decisions may know how to run a football club as a business but they are not football experts. Celtic needs a manager that knows players, makes decisions on players, has contacts across a number of leagues and is pragmatic in the politics and limitations about Scottish football has to offer.

Unfortunately the people running Celtic see the club as a diminishing return and crucually forget that while fans will always turn up they also want to be entertained. They have sacrificed quality on the field against budgets off ignoring that the less quality there is on the field will result in less people buying season tickets. They have taken a gamble on a manager with close to zero managerial experience and it could be argued cost the club millions in lost revenue with three failed attempts at the Champions League. The focus on bringing in young players, while admirable in one sense, has now gone too much in one direction with little experience now running throughout the squad. I have little doubt their plan is to bring all these young players in now, have them blooded this season and we will be in a better position when the huns are back in the SPFL next year when season ticket sales will undoubtedly increase due to games against them.

All of the above represents a major gamble especially when there is already a growing pot of disillusionment and resentment towards those in charge by failing to spend in key areas over the summer. Failure on any level will see fan resentment against the Board significantly increase. While I don't want Celtic to fail on anything a major rethink about the football side of the club is required and that can only come about by the removal of a number of people on the Board in key positions. The dissconnect between the Board and fan has never been bigger and as we know football without fans is nothing.
Excellent post :thumbsup:

in the areas you identify put simply it is not under-investment (as discussed on previous pages) it is plain and simple mismanagement on the part of PL
agree with all of this, the balance the books at all costs has been the mantra for 10 years now and has cost us at least one title(failure to pay for Stephen Fletcher), and now CL qualification at least twice
Only one title?

Agree its time for a new focus alongside a new CEO.
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LoveCeltic
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Stringer Bell
15 Sep 2015, 11:34 AM
This current board aren't creating vitriol and anger and I don't ever foresee protests or boycotts.

What they're creating is apathy, which is far more dangerous.
Mainly apathy with a few bordering on anger.

I wish everyone would get angry though and then we might see some action against the board and some reaction from them.
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paulfg42
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Adam Smith 11
1 Oct 2015, 10:09 AM
fatboab
1 Oct 2015, 09:59 AM
Adam Smith 11
1 Oct 2015, 09:55 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
If any other CEO had been responsible for the decline our "Business" finds itself in, he'd have been out the door. We have basically lost 25% of our customer base in the last few years, and without CL money, we make a loss. There must be someone else out there who could do the job better than Lawwell is currently doing it.
CEOs are asked all the time to manage a comparative disadvantage.

In absolute terms the business may get worse but their job is to limit the damage until the strategic landscape changes.

We can't blame anyone at Celtic for the EPL TV money giving Bournemouth more financial clout than Celtic.

Aspiration can drive ambition but realism has to be the starting point when setting a CEOs objectives. DD sets those objectives not PL, PL has in DD eyes met them as evidenced by his remuneration.
How's the 'strategic landscape' going to change?
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sevilliano
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paulfg42
2 Oct 2015, 12:12 AM
Adam Smith 11
1 Oct 2015, 10:09 AM
fatboab
1 Oct 2015, 09:59 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
CEOs are asked all the time to manage a comparative disadvantage.

In absolute terms the business may get worse but their job is to limit the damage until the strategic landscape changes.

We can't blame anyone at Celtic for the EPL TV money giving Bournemouth more financial clout than Celtic.

Aspiration can drive ambition but realism has to be the starting point when setting a CEOs objectives. DD sets those objectives not PL, PL has in DD eyes met them as evidenced by his remuneration.
How's the 'strategic landscape' going to change?
You have to make it happen, agitate and use every weapon at your disposal

It was only when we deployed QC v Sfa on regular basis that we took on the sfa and referees and succeeded in changing matters substantially

Likewise on UK and euro football if we want change we've got to make it happen - apply to the effin northern conference or whatever in England, start a summer cup with holland Denmark Sweden and norway but do something
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