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The Board - general discussion (including Res 12); notes from the AGM
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Topic Started: 15 Jul 2014, 12:03 AM (1,414,812 Views)
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Adam Smith 11
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1 Oct 2015, 09:43 AM
Post #4201
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Contract up for renewal, now on a diet and trying harder.
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- The Green Lantern
- 1 Oct 2015, 09:18 AM
I think the EPL stuff shows how out of touch he's become. We aren't an attractive proposition for that league, not to mention we'd struggle to have any success in it.
As bad as things are now, at least we have the possibility of winning some trophies. The financial climate has changes so much over the past few years that, IMO, we'd be lucky to get much higher than mid-table. That really would be soul destroying. We would be successful in the EPL.
The table positions can almost be written by turnover.
We have an advantage over at least 80% of the EPL on our ability to earn outside of the TV money.
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fatboab
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1 Oct 2015, 09:49 AM
Post #4202
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Just before the Dawn
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- idyllwild
- 1 Oct 2015, 08:34 AM
A fan buyout ain't gonna happen. We had the chance and didn't take it.
So the club is going to be owned by an individual or small controlling group. Accepting that to be correct, then DD is pretty much the ideal owner. Someone who is largely hands-off (golf course managerial appointments notwithstanding), and who gives the CEO a remit of not making a significant loss. And that's it.
Our issue isn't DD, it's how PL manages the operations of the club.
Absolutely bang on the money. Lawwell is the problem. He has created an impenetrable coterie of "yes men" around him, and makes decisions he's far from qualified to make, and gets paid far far too much money for doing it.
DD on the other hand is exactly the kind of owner we need in our present circamstances, namely one who keeps an eye on the bottom line, but doesn't need to take from the club. We could do better I guess, but we could do an awful lot worse.
Until Lawwell steps aside, we will remain locked in this never-ending spiral of decline.
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Adam Smith 11
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1 Oct 2015, 09:55 AM
Post #4203
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Contract up for renewal, now on a diet and trying harder.
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- fatboab
- 1 Oct 2015, 09:49 AM
- idyllwild
- 1 Oct 2015, 08:34 AM
A fan buyout ain't gonna happen. We had the chance and didn't take it.
So the club is going to be owned by an individual or small controlling group. Accepting that to be correct, then DD is pretty much the ideal owner. Someone who is largely hands-off (golf course managerial appointments notwithstanding), and who gives the CEO a remit of not making a significant loss. And that's it.
Our issue isn't DD, it's how PL manages the operations of the club. Absolutely bang on the money. Lawwell is the problem. He has created an impenetrable coterie of "yes men" around him, and makes decisions he's far from qualified to make, and gets paid far far too much money for doing it. DD on the other hand is exactly the kind of owner we need in our present circamstances, namely one who keeps an eye on the bottom line, but doesn't need to take from the club. We could do better I guess, but we could do an awful lot worse. Until Lawwell steps aside, we will remain locked in this never-ending spiral of decline. PL is meeting the objectives set by DD.
DD is the senior guy.
If an employee is sacked in any other walk of life for meeting the objectives of his employer this would be seen as an injustice.
Edit: Sorry FB you never said sacked you said step aside. This is not aimed at you but the point stands that he is meeting his employers objectives.
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fatboab
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1 Oct 2015, 09:59 AM
Post #4204
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Just before the Dawn
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- Adam Smith 11
- 1 Oct 2015, 09:55 AM
- fatboab
- 1 Oct 2015, 09:49 AM
- idyllwild
- 1 Oct 2015, 08:34 AM
A fan buyout ain't gonna happen. We had the chance and didn't take it.
So the club is going to be owned by an individual or small controlling group. Accepting that to be correct, then DD is pretty much the ideal owner. Someone who is largely hands-off (golf course managerial appointments notwithstanding), and who gives the CEO a remit of not making a significant loss. And that's it.
Our issue isn't DD, it's how PL manages the operations of the club. Absolutely bang on the money. Lawwell is the problem. He has created an impenetrable coterie of "yes men" around him, and makes decisions he's far from qualified to make, and gets paid far far too much money for doing it. DD on the other hand is exactly the kind of owner we need in our present circamstances, namely one who keeps an eye on the bottom line, but doesn't need to take from the club. We could do better I guess, but we could do an awful lot worse. Until Lawwell steps aside, we will remain locked in this never-ending spiral of decline.
PL is meeting the objectives set by DD. DD is the senior guy. If an employee is sacked in any other walk of life for meeting the objectives of his employer this would be seen as an injustice. If any other CEO had been responsible for the decline our "Business" finds itself in, he'd have been out the door. We have basically lost 25% of our customer base in the last few years, and without CL money, we make a loss. There must be someone else out there who could do the job better than Lawwell is currently doing it.
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Tiny Tim
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1 Oct 2015, 09:59 AM
Post #4205
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"a Premier League player in all but status"
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- idyllwild
- 1 Oct 2015, 09:12 AM
- Tiny Tim
- 1 Oct 2015, 08:55 AM
- idyllwild
- 1 Oct 2015, 08:34 AM
A fan buyout ain't gonna happen. We had the chance and didn't take it.
So the club is going to be owned by an individual or small controlling group. Accepting that to be correct, then DD is pretty much the ideal owner. Someone who is largely hands-off (golf course managerial appointments notwithstanding), and who gives the CEO a remit of not making a significant loss. And that's it.
Our issue isn't DD, it's how PL manages the operations of the club.
The operations are managed according what Desmond wants for the club. No point complaining about Lawwell earning his salary and bonuses, when the prioprities and targets he hits are set by Desmond.
The detail of the operations are decided by PL. DD doesn't give a feck how it is run, as long as we don't make a significant loss. He's guilty of not holding his CEO accountable as murphio says, and that is the one downside of having a hands-off owner. I wouldn't be in a rush to replace DD with another owner or group though, unless it actually was a supporter buyout. Any replacement for Lawwell, will be someone who does the same thing- running the club as DD wants. DD is our problem.
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idyllwild
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1 Oct 2015, 10:04 AM
Post #4206
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- Tiny Tim
- 1 Oct 2015, 09:59 AM
- idyllwild
- 1 Oct 2015, 09:12 AM
- Tiny Tim
- 1 Oct 2015, 08:55 AM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The detail of the operations are decided by PL. DD doesn't give a feck how it is run, as long as we don't make a significant loss. He's guilty of not holding his CEO accountable as murphio says, and that is the one downside of having a hands-off owner. I wouldn't be in a rush to replace DD with another owner or group though, unless it actually was a supporter buyout.
Any replacement for Lawwell, will be someone who does the same thing- running the club as DD wants. DD is our problem. How does DD want the club run?
It seems to me that his only objective is for the club to have a decent financial picture. I don't see any indicators that he wants the club run in any particular way.
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Adam Smith 11
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1 Oct 2015, 10:09 AM
Post #4207
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Contract up for renewal, now on a diet and trying harder.
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- fatboab
- 1 Oct 2015, 09:59 AM
- Adam Smith 11
- 1 Oct 2015, 09:55 AM
- fatboab
- 1 Oct 2015, 09:49 AM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
PL is meeting the objectives set by DD. DD is the senior guy. If an employee is sacked in any other walk of life for meeting the objectives of his employer this would be seen as an injustice.
If any other CEO had been responsible for the decline our "Business" finds itself in, he'd have been out the door. We have basically lost 25% of our customer base in the last few years, and without CL money, we make a loss. There must be someone else out there who could do the job better than Lawwell is currently doing it. CEOs are asked all the time to manage a comparative disadvantage.
In absolute terms the business may get worse but their job is to limit the damage until the strategic landscape changes.
We can't blame anyone at Celtic for the EPL TV money giving Bournemouth more financial clout than Celtic.
Aspiration can drive ambition but realism has to be the starting point when setting a CEOs objectives. DD sets those objectives not PL, PL has in DD eyes met them as evidenced by his remuneration.
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FatherSpliffmas
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1 Oct 2015, 10:13 AM
Post #4208
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Everyone's Fantasy Football first pick
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- kingbhoyd
- 15 Sep 2015, 04:41 PM
- Faust
- 15 Sep 2015, 03:10 PM
- kingbhoyd
- 15 Sep 2015, 02:33 PM
There's some guys who seem to know a hell of a lot about the functioning of the Celtic board and the personalities and their motivations. An amazing amount given they're a million miles away from it.
If they were really applying proper scrutiny & governance PL's performance would have seen him binned by a truly vigilant board a long time since. Some people on here do know some of the board players, and close planets of the club. One of the most important men in the history of the club, and a highly successful businessman to boot, told me a while ago that DD's voivce was the only one that mattered at CP. Another high-achiever in business, with impeccable contacts at the club, was adamant that PL's only KPI was to ensure that DD did not have to shell out a penny for Celtic. For that he gets his £1m pa. Accountants should never be CEs at football clubs, unless they are someone else's tool. As in our case.
you're not the only person who knows people. But then any idiot can work out its not as simple as DD calling the shots and PL simply doing his bidding, it's just really simplistic and from what I know it's far from the truth. For one thing the idea that someone like Ian livingstone sits on the board and sits by while DD runs the company for his own personal gain with total disregard for corporate governance? What about previous board members, chairmen? All spineless or in on the con? Your point about accountants running football is just stupid, it's your opinion and nothing more. You do know that people aren't accountants by birth and that they can do other things, especially when they've been doing it for 10 years. I don't think the majority of the ftse CEOs who had their grounding in accountancy would consider themselves to be accountants even if you do. You'd best tell man united they've got a wrong un in charge The business leaders of the worlds largest organisations tend to be accountants. As you said the majority of FTSE 100 CEOs are ACA/CA qualified. An accounting background is almost a necessity in today's complex financial world and the idea that this somehow invalidates Lawwell's credentials is ludicrous.
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idyllwild
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1 Oct 2015, 10:25 AM
Post #4209
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- FatherSpliffmas
- 1 Oct 2015, 10:13 AM
- kingbhoyd
- 15 Sep 2015, 04:41 PM
- Faust
- 15 Sep 2015, 03:10 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
you're not the only person who knows people. But then any idiot can work out its not as simple as DD calling the shots and PL simply doing his bidding, it's just really simplistic and from what I know it's far from the truth. For one thing the idea that someone like Ian livingstone sits on the board and sits by while DD runs the company for his own personal gain with total disregard for corporate governance? What about previous board members, chairmen? All spineless or in on the con? Your point about accountants running football is just stupid, it's your opinion and nothing more. You do know that people aren't accountants by birth and that they can do other things, especially when they've been doing it for 10 years. I don't think the majority of the ftse CEOs who had their grounding in accountancy would consider themselves to be accountants even if you do. You'd best tell man united they've got a wrong un in charge  The business leaders of the worlds largest organisations tend to be accountants. As you said the majority of FTSE 100 CEOs are ACA/CA qualified. An accounting background is almost a necessity in today's complex financial world and the idea that this somehow invalidates Lawwell's credentials is ludicrous. Accountants are great at managing the finances of a business, but I'd much rather have a "product"/football person in charge.
Apple being the most obvious example that springs to mind. And also Bayern in football. People who know about the product are at the top of the organisation.
You fill your boardroom and executive level with accountants, lawyers, and administrators. The person at the top needs to be a bit more creative.
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Jungle
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1 Oct 2015, 10:36 AM
Post #4210
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- idyllwild
- 1 Oct 2015, 10:25 AM
]Accountants are great at managing the finances of a business, You should never allow accountants to run any business, they are completely risk averse and all businesses requires risks, few or many, to be taken on occasion to succeed.
However, you could argue that our striker signing policy over the past five years has been full of such risk.
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JimG31Bhoy
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1 Oct 2015, 10:41 AM
Post #4211
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Everyone's Fantasy Football first pick
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Unfortunately, we seem to be in the business of selling off our best assets in every Summer transfer window. It doesn't seem to have occurred to the board that the side effect of dismantling the team is to empty the stands. Bitton and Johannsen- if he regains his form- will be the next to go.
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remy mcswain
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1 Oct 2015, 10:49 AM
Post #4212
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- FatherSpliffmas
- 1 Oct 2015, 10:13 AM
- kingbhoyd
- 15 Sep 2015, 04:41 PM
- Faust
- 15 Sep 2015, 03:10 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
you're not the only person who knows people. But then any idiot can work out its not as simple as DD calling the shots and PL simply doing his bidding, it's just really simplistic and from what I know it's far from the truth. For one thing the idea that someone like Ian livingstone sits on the board and sits by while DD runs the company for his own personal gain with total disregard for corporate governance? What about previous board members, chairmen? All spineless or in on the con? Your point about accountants running football is just stupid, it's your opinion and nothing more. You do know that people aren't accountants by birth and that they can do other things, especially when they've been doing it for 10 years. I don't think the majority of the ftse CEOs who had their grounding in accountancy would consider themselves to be accountants even if you do. You'd best tell man united they've got a wrong un in charge  The business leaders of the worlds largest organisations tend to be accountants. As you said the majority of FTSE 100 CEOs are ACA/CA qualified. An accounting background is almost a necessity in today's complex financial world and the idea that this somehow invalidates Lawwell's credentials is ludicrous. A package of £1m is ludicrous for the size of our business.
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Adam Smith 11
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1 Oct 2015, 10:57 AM
Post #4213
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Contract up for renewal, now on a diet and trying harder.
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- idyllwild
- 1 Oct 2015, 10:25 AM
- FatherSpliffmas
- 1 Oct 2015, 10:13 AM
- kingbhoyd
- 15 Sep 2015, 04:41 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
 The business leaders of the worlds largest organisations tend to be accountants. As you said the majority of FTSE 100 CEOs are ACA/CA qualified. An accounting background is almost a necessity in today's complex financial world and the idea that this somehow invalidates Lawwell's credentials is ludicrous.
Accountants are great at managing the finances of a business, but I'd much rather have a "product"/football person in charge. Apple being the most obvious example that springs to mind. And also Bayern in football. People who know about the product are at the top of the organisation. You fill your boardroom and executive level with accountants, lawyers, and administrators. The person at the top needs to be a bit more creative. It must be about context though.
Creativity cannot thrive in a highly regulated closed market. Stick a dreamer in that type of environment and carnage ensues.
It is depressing but all creative avenues have been exhausted in the current circumstances, these circumstances have been prevalent for 15 years and their has not been an original idea even on fans forums for a decade.
DD is dreaming of the EPL and look at the abuse he is getting.
Strategically we are stuffed.
The creativity we need is in changing this everything else is tantamount to rearranging the deck chairs.
Don't get me wrong but finding a great coach would help in the short term but they would be off at the first smell of a bigger job if we are being realistic.
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Adam Smith 11
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1 Oct 2015, 11:01 AM
Post #4214
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Contract up for renewal, now on a diet and trying harder.
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- remy mcswain
- 1 Oct 2015, 10:49 AM
- FatherSpliffmas
- 1 Oct 2015, 10:13 AM
- kingbhoyd
- 15 Sep 2015, 04:41 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
 The business leaders of the worlds largest organisations tend to be accountants. As you said the majority of FTSE 100 CEOs are ACA/CA qualified. An accounting background is almost a necessity in today's complex financial world and the idea that this somehow invalidates Lawwell's credentials is ludicrous.
A package of £1m is ludicrous for the size of our business. Do you think think DD gives PL the credit for the deals we have gotten for players over the last few years though and offsets it in that way?
This is the only reason I can think of for paying over the odds.
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embdysman
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1 Oct 2015, 11:12 AM
Post #4215
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- remy mcswain
- 1 Oct 2015, 10:49 AM
- FatherSpliffmas
- 1 Oct 2015, 10:13 AM
- kingbhoyd
- 15 Sep 2015, 04:41 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
 The business leaders of the worlds largest organisations tend to be accountants. As you said the majority of FTSE 100 CEOs are ACA/CA qualified. An accounting background is almost a necessity in today's complex financial world and the idea that this somehow invalidates Lawwell's credentials is ludicrous.
A package of £1m is ludicrous for the size of our business. Does that opinion change when you compare it to what the players take home?
It's not a normal business with a turnover of £50m-£100m. No other type of business with a wages to revenue ratio like football.
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idyllwild
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1 Oct 2015, 11:16 AM
Post #4216
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- Adam Smith 11
- 1 Oct 2015, 10:57 AM
- idyllwild
- 1 Oct 2015, 10:25 AM
- FatherSpliffmas
- 1 Oct 2015, 10:13 AM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Accountants are great at managing the finances of a business, but I'd much rather have a "product"/football person in charge. Apple being the most obvious example that springs to mind. And also Bayern in football. People who know about the product are at the top of the organisation. You fill your boardroom and executive level with accountants, lawyers, and administrators. The person at the top needs to be a bit more creative.
It must be about context though. Creativity cannot thrive in a highly regulated closed market. Stick a dreamer in that type of environment and carnage ensues. It is depressing but all creative avenues have been exhausted in the current circumstances, these circumstances have been prevalent for 15 years and their has not been an original idea even on fans forums for a decade. DD is dreaming of the EPL and look at the abuse he is getting. Strategically we are stuffed. The creativity we need is in changing this everything else is tantamount to rearranging the deck chairs. Don't get me wrong but finding a great coach would help in the short term but they would be off at the first smell of a bigger job if we are being realistic. Agree up to a point, and I'm not sure how far we're going off-topic, but the CEO should be able to come up with the a strategy, and ways in which it might be implemented. The accountants and administrators will then review it for real-world feasibility.
Our strategy is incredibly basic and focused solely on financials, which should never be the case outwith a financial organisation. Like Newcastle, we are a company whose primary business is trading footballers. That's the result of our having an accountant in charge. The CEO clearly has no performance objectives beyond the financial ones.
The Bayern model is perfect, irrespective of the size of club. A football person in charge, and a board of administrators to oversee things. Having said that, most of our footballers seem wary of engaging their brains during their career, so probably aren't best placed to run things.
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remy mcswain
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1 Oct 2015, 11:23 AM
Post #4217
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- embdysman
- 1 Oct 2015, 11:12 AM
- remy mcswain
- 1 Oct 2015, 10:49 AM
- FatherSpliffmas
- 1 Oct 2015, 10:13 AM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
A package of £1m is ludicrous for the size of our business.
Does that opinion change when you compare it to what the players take home? It's not a normal business with a turnover of £50m-£100m. No other type of business with a wages to revenue ratio like football. No. We are a football club.
The CEO should not be earning more than the top players or the manager.
We have got it seriously wrong here.
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Big_Bobo_Balde
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1 Oct 2015, 11:29 AM
Post #4218
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- remy mcswain
- 1 Oct 2015, 11:23 AM
- embdysman
- 1 Oct 2015, 11:12 AM
- remy mcswain
- 1 Oct 2015, 10:49 AM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Does that opinion change when you compare it to what the players take home? It's not a normal business with a turnover of £50m-£100m. No other type of business with a wages to revenue ratio like football.
No. We are a football club. The CEO should not be earning more than the top players or the manager. We have got it seriously wrong here. Correct the only one not effected by our downsizing is PL, that's clearly not right.
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MILLIGANS ISLAND
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1 Oct 2015, 11:30 AM
Post #4219
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....give us a glimmer......
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- murphio
- 1 Oct 2015, 08:55 AM
- idyllwild
- 1 Oct 2015, 08:34 AM
Our issue isn't DD, it's how PL manages the operations of the club.
DD is ultimately responsible for keeping Lawwell in situ though. If he were more hands on then perhaps he wouldn't be so blind in regards to how much of a malaise is engulfing the support under Lawwell's management. You're right; the problem is Lawwell but DD is the person who should be rectifying that problem. The problem with that is DD sees lawwell as the solution.
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wigwam
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1 Oct 2015, 11:32 AM
Post #4220
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Unfortunately we could do a lot worse than Lawwell. eg Someone paying 5m for VVD and accepting 7m when selling would leave us way worse off and he's been very good at that side of things. My only issue with how we now operate is player recruitment. We have spunked money on a variety of failures over the last few years leaving us unable to qualify for the CL. Better players instead of Pukki, Balde, Scepovic, Bangura etc would have possibly resolved this, as well as the knock on effect of more people turning up every week. It's our single biggest failing for me and it's not exactly clear who is giving the nod for these guys, but it needs sorted. I'm pretty sure Lawwell will be getting away with blaming the downturn financially on the sevco situation and DD will believe him. Both in for a wake up call next season I think.
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