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The Board - general discussion (including Res 12); notes from the AGM
Topic Started: 15 Jul 2014, 12:03 AM (1,414,863 Views)
CaltonBhoy1967
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Billy McNeill - "Mr Celtic"
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Kevtic on here used to talk of Lawwell being in a comfort zone" which he has been and probably still is in - The reason irrespective of what the majority of the Support think of him is that PL carries out his remit - The sad thing is unless our major shareholder comes off the golf course long enough to deign that that remit is to be changed then like Deila I am not sure Lawwell going would change much as a new CEO will still be basically an exceptionally well paid puppet to Desmond's string pulling - Anyone who has ever seen the share voting at an AGM when Desmond's proxy kicks in will know that.

We have seen the baws downsized off the Club and we still seem to be heading South. :cry:
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Mackin
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The Ginty McGinty genius
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polo88
27 Aug 2015, 12:00 PM
One of the big issues surrounding signing real quality players is the fact that quality players generally don't want to play in the pishing rain against Kilmarnock and Hamilton Accies etc.


Players will go where the money is.

Do you think Brazilians look at Ukraine and go 'Ooh, thats a nice country with a good standard of league and loads of nice shops for my wife to buy some grenades and AK-47s'.
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Winds of Change CSC
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Quote:
 
I do agree with your 1st 2 paragraphs though. It seems like Lawwell has got it in his head he can spot players to some degree (that's just my opinion from quotes/comments from when we didn't sign players like doumbia so i could certainly be wrong here) which is concerning imo.


Not only that, he will have some pet or favourite football agents pushing him their players as the next "project" that would be just "ideal" for what our team needs.

looking at the total dross we have wasted money on over the past few years i have to ask if these zoomers are actually scouted by anyone? And if so what the feck were they watching?
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Joseph D. Pistone
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Mackin
27 Aug 2015, 01:09 PM
polo88
27 Aug 2015, 12:00 PM
One of the big issues surrounding signing real quality players is the fact that quality players generally don't want to play in the pishing rain against Kilmarnock and Hamilton Accies etc.


Players will go where the money is.

Do you think Brazilians look at Ukraine and go 'Ooh, thats a nice country with a good standard of league and loads of nice shops for my wife to buy some grenades and AK-47s'.
They're offering ridiculous money though, which is dubious to say the least in it's source.
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Gazebo of Dignity
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For a club with a limited income. We dont half waste a load of cash on squad filler. We desperately need to clear the squad out so we can afford some better players
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Winds of Change CSC
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Gazebo of Dignity
27 Aug 2015, 01:13 PM
For a club with a limited income. We dont half waste a load of cash on squad filler. We desperately need to clear the squad out so we can afford some better players
:lol: Who is going to buy the feckers though!!!
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Gazebo of Dignity
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Winds of Change CSC
27 Aug 2015, 01:15 PM
Gazebo of Dignity
27 Aug 2015, 01:13 PM
For a club with a limited income. We dont half waste a load of cash on squad filler. We desperately need to clear the squad out so we can afford some better players
:lol: Who is going to buy the feckers though!!!
We can't be the only club this daft. Surely

:(
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thetrurolion
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polo88
27 Aug 2015, 12:00 PM
One of the big issues surrounding signing real quality players is the fact that quality players generally don't want to play in the pishing rain against Kilmarnock and Hamilton Accies etc.


Pay them the money and they might
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mizpah
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CaltonBhoy1967
27 Aug 2015, 01:04 PM
Kevtic on here used to talk of Lawwell being in a comfort zone" which he has been and probably still is in - The reason irrespective of what the majority of the Support think of him is that PL carries out his remit - The sad thing is unless our major shareholder comes off the golf course long enough to deign that that remit is to be changed then like Deila I am not sure Lawwell going would change much as a new CEO will still be basically an exceptionally well paid puppet to Desmond's string pulling - Anyone who has ever seen the share voting at an AGM when Desmond's proxy kicks in will know that.

We have seen the baws downsized off the Club and we still seem to be heading South. :cry:
The whole club is in a comfort zone. The period without the huns in the SPL should have seen us consolidate our position and put ourselves out of reach. Instead we are still dealing with the same issues we were when Mowbray was manager. Everything from the manager we've recruited to the money we've wasted on strikers, our continued gambling in the transfer marker, to our demeanour on the pitch speaks of complacency, because domestically at least complacent is good enough. Sadly, it will only change when the huns are breathing down our neck. That's not what I want, but it's how Lawwell operates.

A golden opportunity that will likely never come again, squandered.

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Estadio nacional
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Winds of Change CSC
27 Aug 2015, 01:10 PM
Quote:
 
I do agree with your 1st 2 paragraphs though. It seems like Lawwell has got it in his head he can spot players to some degree (that's just my opinion from quotes/comments from when we didn't sign players like doumbia so i could certainly be wrong here) which is concerning imo.


Not only that, he will have some pet or favourite football agents pushing him their players as the next "project" that would be just "ideal" for what our team needs.

looking at the total dross we have wasted money on over the past few years i have to ask if these zoomers are actually scouted by anyone? And if so what the feck were they watching?
CQN Had a blog 'heres how it works' in June saying that scouts are given a remit to go and find players for the club.

Quote:
 
Here’s how it works. Celtic tell agents the profile of players they are looking for, who subsequently send their client’s CVs and DVDs back. If one fits the profile (for example: a central defender, with pace, wage budget £X, transfer budget £Y), then he is retained for consideration.


Lazy scouting by the looks of it, asking salesmen if they have anything the can sell.

PL definitely uses favoured agents, if thats all we are doing its no wonder we end up with gash
Edited by Estadio nacional, 27 Aug 2015, 01:43 PM.
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Silent Witness
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Sjb141
27 Aug 2015, 01:03 PM
Silent Witness
27 Aug 2015, 02:01 AM
Peter Lawwell and the board are doing the job that they are qualified to do, that is run a business. I don't have any issue with the level of expenditure they oversee - I'd be more worried if we overspent. We already outspend the teams that regularly beat us in Europe. I fail to see how the answer is spend more if we're not spending what we already do wisely. Is it Ronny's fault then ? Well I don't think he's entirely in control of recruiting and he certainly doesn't decide how much is spent.

Looks to me that we're missing a role in the club to oversee the footballing strategy. I agree that we don't really have one, but that has largely applied since Fergus took over anyway. Lawwell appears to make footballing decisions dictated by the business, specifically player sales. But we would incur losses without some of these, and our squad has been too big for too long anyway. But he's doing a job that doesn't seem to be filled at the moment, particularly since a manager will not volunteer to discard players to save money (or rather not to spend money on nothing). My only real gripe with PL is that he is paid well over the odds, but that is not a huge dent in the club's finances.

We need a director of football, i.e. an ex-footballer and coach who can make the required footballing calls, but work within the financial constraints. Not many British clubs have made this leap, because a lot of managers would not be happy working with one. However, Ronny most certainly would. It's actually a perfect role for someone like Gordon Strachan. If we don't qualify for the Euros, maybe we could give him a call.
W/r/t your last paragraph - a lot of british clubs use that model now. Man City, tottenham, southampton, west brom, liverpool (they call it a 'committee' but it's practically the same thing') all do off the top of my head. Sure there's probably many more (maybe bournemouth? watford..etc). So it's not very rare. And I think Strachan would be an awful, awful fit for that role to be entirely honest.


I do agree with your 1st 2 paragraphs though. It seems like Lawwell has got it in his head he can spot players to some degree (that's just my opinion from quotes/comments from when we didn't sign players like doumbia so i could certainly be wrong here) which is concerning imo.
Fair enough, Strachan was a guess, but someone with a football pedigree and an ability to handle the finances. I don't think the committee approach is a good idea, but managers often have team working for them, like moneyball analysts etc. It does strike me that we're missing a vital skillset at a strategic level. Someone who reports to the board, oversees the finance of the footballing operation, acts on wishes of the coach, but is not directly involved with the team, other than possibly disciplinary matters. In the past, the manager did all of this, but this is way too much for one person now. At the moment, it looks like a head scout has too much influence, because we are buying way too many duds.

But even a shakeup of the organisation isn't enough. It's a culture change that's required - fitness, training, skills, working on weaknesses etc. By and large the very things that Ronny was brought in for, and what we've started to see (despite Tuesday). In that respect, I actually prefer recruiting in the Scottish game and bringing kids through, to improve them rather than trying to snap up the finished article. If a van Dijk turns up that's a different matter of course.

May seem contradictory, but we may have to step back before going forward. We've largely been operating the same model with diminishing returns for the last decade. It has to change, and we were a club in decline when Ronny arrived. It's just that to implement a strategy and a playing system (the 4-2-3-1, which will operate at all levels), we need to have an enthusiastic and supportive squad. That means youth and players who see Celtic as an ambitious move for them rather than a good top up for the retirement fund.
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Sjb141
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Estadio nacional
27 Aug 2015, 01:39 PM
Winds of Change CSC
27 Aug 2015, 01:10 PM
Quote:
 
I do agree with your 1st 2 paragraphs though. It seems like Lawwell has got it in his head he can spot players to some degree (that's just my opinion from quotes/comments from when we didn't sign players like doumbia so i could certainly be wrong here) which is concerning imo.


Not only that, he will have some pet or favourite football agents pushing him their players as the next "project" that would be just "ideal" for what our team needs.

looking at the total dross we have wasted money on over the past few years i have to ask if these zoomers are actually scouted by anyone? And if so what the feck were they watching?
CQN Had a blog 'heres how it works' in June saying that scouts are given a remit to go and find players for the club.

Quote:
 
Here’s how it works. Celtic tell agents the profile of players they are looking for, who subsequently send their client’s CVs and DVDs back. If one fits the profile (for example: a central defender, with pace, wage budget £X, transfer budget £Y), then he is retained for consideration.


Lazy scouting by the looks of it, asking salesmen if they have anything the can sell.

PL definitely uses favoured agents, if thats all we are doing its no wonder we end up with gash
I don't know if that is entirely true (I feel like I've read that same thing before but not on CQN - maybe swiss ramble) but you're right, if it is, it's pretty pathetic.


I can say that I was talking to a real, actual football scout a few years back (maybe 2 or 3) about a specific youth tournament and I asked if any celtic scouts were there and he laughed at me. Probably not the best sign.
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k3vkr
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Mackin
27 Aug 2015, 09:33 AM
aldo
26 Aug 2015, 10:50 PM
Like the Tories' approach to governing the country, Desmond-Lawwell have chosen to pursue an austerity agenda. The Tories claim they believe it's the best way to get Blighty out of recession, while Desmond-Lawwell claim it is because the huns' self destruction costs Celtic £10m a year. Both parties are bare faced, lying bastards, but while the economy really is in recession, this guff about the huns is bullsh it. It's an excuse to justify the prompt-as-possible sale of our best players while replacing them with cheaper, more risky signings, as we'll still win the league regardless.

For as long as I can remember, successive Celtic boards have never displayed any ambition greater than just being better than the old huns. Jock Stein knew what it meant to be not just better, but to batter the bastards into a distant second; that winning the greatest prize possible and setting a world record of titles brought Celtic not only honourable entries in the record books, but also an enduring, worldwide admiration that still wins us friends today. He achieved this in spite of a parsimonious board who would have bullied and stymied him like they did McGrory had he not stood up to them. Our current owner and his enforcer are equally unambitious. Rather than sieze the opportunity to cement Celtic as a powerhouse that lead the way in a new era of Scottish football, a new era that was cleansed of the poisoned old Rangers club and it's corrupt agents in the SFA, they just kept their heads down, refused to rock the boat and are counting the days until that new mob are promoted.

They have betrayed every decent Celtic fan who wants an honest game of football, and who wants to see out club be the best it can be.
:theclap:
:theclap:

As ever Aldo :worthy:
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Winds of Change CSC
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Quote:
 
Lazy scouting by the looks of it, asking salesmen if they have anything the can sell.

PL definitely uses favoured agents, if thats all we are doing its no wonder we end up with gash


FFS :lol: :lol: :lol:

if that is true (and looking at the evidence/dross we buy why would it not be) then it really is fecking shocking :nono:
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Sjb141
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Silent Witness
27 Aug 2015, 01:40 PM
Sjb141
27 Aug 2015, 01:03 PM
Silent Witness
27 Aug 2015, 02:01 AM
Peter Lawwell and the board are doing the job that they are qualified to do, that is run a business. I don't have any issue with the level of expenditure they oversee - I'd be more worried if we overspent. We already outspend the teams that regularly beat us in Europe. I fail to see how the answer is spend more if we're not spending what we already do wisely. Is it Ronny's fault then ? Well I don't think he's entirely in control of recruiting and he certainly doesn't decide how much is spent.

Looks to me that we're missing a role in the club to oversee the footballing strategy. I agree that we don't really have one, but that has largely applied since Fergus took over anyway. Lawwell appears to make footballing decisions dictated by the business, specifically player sales. But we would incur losses without some of these, and our squad has been too big for too long anyway. But he's doing a job that doesn't seem to be filled at the moment, particularly since a manager will not volunteer to discard players to save money (or rather not to spend money on nothing). My only real gripe with PL is that he is paid well over the odds, but that is not a huge dent in the club's finances.

We need a director of football, i.e. an ex-footballer and coach who can make the required footballing calls, but work within the financial constraints. Not many British clubs have made this leap, because a lot of managers would not be happy working with one. However, Ronny most certainly would. It's actually a perfect role for someone like Gordon Strachan. If we don't qualify for the Euros, maybe we could give him a call.
W/r/t your last paragraph - a lot of british clubs use that model now. Man City, tottenham, southampton, west brom, liverpool (they call it a 'committee' but it's practically the same thing') all do off the top of my head. Sure there's probably many more (maybe bournemouth? watford..etc). So it's not very rare. And I think Strachan would be an awful, awful fit for that role to be entirely honest.


I do agree with your 1st 2 paragraphs though. It seems like Lawwell has got it in his head he can spot players to some degree (that's just my opinion from quotes/comments from when we didn't sign players like doumbia so i could certainly be wrong here) which is concerning imo.
Fair enough, Strachan was a guess, but someone with a football pedigree and an ability to handle the finances. I don't think the committee approach is a good idea, but managers often have team working for them, like moneyball analysts etc. It does strike me that we're missing a vital skillset at a strategic level. Someone who reports to the board, oversees the finance of the footballing operation, acts on wishes of the coach, but is not directly involved with the team, other than possibly disciplinary matters. In the past, the manager did all of this, but this is way too much for one person now. At the moment, it looks like a head scout has too much influence, because we are buying way too many duds.

But even a shakeup of the organisation isn't enough. It's a culture change that's required - fitness, training, skills, working on weaknesses etc. By and large the very things that Ronny was brought in for, and what we've started to see (despite Tuesday). In that respect, I actually prefer recruiting in the Scottish game and bringing kids through, to improve them rather than trying to snap up the finished article. If a van Dijk turns up that's a different matter of course.

May seem contradictory, but we may have to step back before going forward. We've largely been operating the same model with diminishing returns for the last decade. It has to change, and we were a club in decline when Ronny arrived. It's just that to implement a strategy and a playing system (the 4-2-3-1, which will operate at all levels), we need to have an enthusiastic and supportive squad. That means youth and players who see Celtic as an ambitious move for them rather than a good top up for the retirement fund.
Re: the committee thing, for liverpool all that means is they have a chief scout, business guy, and rogers (and maybe someone representing the board) so it's not tremendously different. In fact without knowing most club structures I think probably look the same.

I agree with the rest though, and especially about the young players. I feel like our market should really be the very highly rated 18-20 yr olds - we will miss a lot and there will be some bad deals, but the rewards are significantly higher.
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henrimd
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mizpah
27 Aug 2015, 01:38 PM
CaltonBhoy1967
27 Aug 2015, 01:04 PM
Kevtic on here used to talk of Lawwell being in a comfort zone" which he has been and probably still is in - The reason irrespective of what the majority of the Support think of him is that PL carries out his remit - The sad thing is unless our major shareholder comes off the golf course long enough to deign that that remit is to be changed then like Deila I am not sure Lawwell going would change much as a new CEO will still be basically an exceptionally well paid puppet to Desmond's string pulling - Anyone who has ever seen the share voting at an AGM when Desmond's proxy kicks in will know that.

We have seen the baws downsized off the Club and we still seem to be heading South. :cry:
The whole club is in a comfort zone. The period without the huns in the SPL should have seen us consolidate our position and put ourselves out of reach. Instead we are still dealing with the same issues we were when Mowbray was manager. Everything from the manager we've recruited to the money we've wasted on strikers, our continued gambling in the transfer marker, to our demeanour on the pitch speaks of complacency, because domestically at least complacent is good enough. Sadly, it will only change when the huns are breathing down our neck. That's not what I want, but it's how Lawwell operates.

A golden opportunity that will likely never come again, squandered.

I totally agree with this. I think it 100 per cent sums up the situation. I also agree that we should have used the years since the liquidation of the hun to put ourselves totally out if reach of the new club when it eventually is promoted. CL group stages qualification increases our income with about 30 per cent, does it not? Four years of CL income, with the accompanying growth from merchandise etc, and would be very difficult for the new huns to catch up with it. Now I am afraid they will do so at some point, though not necessarily next year. We could have had Champions League monopoly, even when the new club comes up, with steady growth each year. Instead we have stood still. Our income this years is budgeted to be about 30 per cent less than 2012-13, isn't it? Genuine question.

A whole lot of huns coming back to Ibrox now that they produce better results. They may get a higher average attendance than us next season, or maybe even this season.
Edited by henrimd, 27 Aug 2015, 02:55 PM.
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Belgrano
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Lawwell to trigger his bonus payment again this year - with the simple dotting of a few i's and crossing of a few t's with the sale of Van Dijk.

The complete separation between success on the field and financial rewards to the board off it, continues.
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henrimd
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Belgrano
27 Aug 2015, 02:58 PM
Lawwell to trigger his bonus payment again this year - with the simple dotting of a few i's and crossing of a few t's with the sale of Van Dijk.

The complete separation between success on the field and financial rewards to the board off it, continues.
That is the hapless scenario. Considering how much influence Lawwell has over the sporting sector, his bonuses should be based on both sporting and business targets. Normally CEOs don't get large bonuses if the black numbers in the accounts are based on reduced costs that leads to a reduction in the quality of the product, as that normally leads to diminished income at some later point.
Edited by henrimd, 27 Aug 2015, 03:05 PM.
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henrikisgod
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green_equals_silver
27 Aug 2015, 11:07 AM
idyllwild
27 Aug 2015, 10:30 AM
henrikisgod
27 Aug 2015, 10:26 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The board are responsible for many many things which are wrong with the club. However, the manager inherited a squad which had played in the group stages in the CL. From that he lost Forster and was handed Gordon. He also lost Samaras. New signings notwithstanding, we had and have a squad who are capable of qualifying for the CL. It's not the board's fault that the team failed.
You do remember how badly that CL squad got spanked out the competition at their previous attempt after scraping by a bunch of no marks from Kazakstan to qualify? The manager inherited a squad who couldn't cut it at that level, we still can't - nothing has changed in 2 seasons.
Saved me the bother :thumbsup:
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henrimd
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henrikisgod
27 Aug 2015, 03:04 PM
green_equals_silver
27 Aug 2015, 11:07 AM
idyllwild
27 Aug 2015, 10:30 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
You do remember how badly that CL squad got spanked out the competition at their previous attempt after scraping by a bunch of no marks from Kazakstan to qualify? The manager inherited a squad who couldn't cut it at that level, we still can't - nothing has changed in 2 seasons.
Saved me the bother :thumbsup:
Not just the Kazakstanis, we scrapped through against a poor Swedish team the round before. We could easily have gone out before even reaching the play offs.

And he didn't just lose Samaras. Ledley went to. Not that that is was the important point.
Edited by henrimd, 27 Aug 2015, 03:09 PM.
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