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Generic SPFL Thread; all the other stuff
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Topic Started: 5 Apr 2014, 05:29 PM (152,733 Views)
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Forza
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5 Jun 2018, 01:59 PM
Post #1461
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Roy McGregor put forward a pretty convincing argument back in 2013 when he voted against this. A disproportionately large amount of Scottish top flight clubs income comes through season ticket sales.
His point was that in a 12-12 system that became 8-8-8 after 22 games, which section most clubs will play their final 14 games in, or nearly 40% of them, are likely to be a complete unknown.
That is potentially significant for clubs who are much more likely to be uncertain whether they will be in the middle or lowest section of 8. It matters not to a club like Celtic who will be in the top section 100% of the time.
His point was that punters were not going to fork out for season tickets in the same numbers when they don't know what nearly 40% of their season's games are going to look like. There's less value to buying a season ticket up front if you are playing Queen of the South and Morton instead of Celtic and Sevco, I'll wager.
At least with the current system 33 fixtures are pre split and 5 post. You know what over 85% of the league season you are paying up front for will look like.
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Hairytoes
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5 Jun 2018, 02:52 PM
Post #1462
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Too many Scottish clubs will always be the issue, some should just merge like Inverness did & like they did maybe bring some football success to their area (if that's what they want?). Lawell has called it correctly in saying the spfl should take the reigns more.
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IainG
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5 Jun 2018, 03:57 PM
Post #1463
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Ah but I was so much older then,I'm younger than that now
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- Hairytoes
- 5 Jun 2018, 02:52 PM
Too many Scottish clubs will always be the issue, some should just merge like Inverness did & like they did maybe bring some football success to their area (if that's what they want?). Lawell has called it correctly in saying the spfl should take the reigns more. Agree with this. In a small,lightly populated county like Angus for instance there are 4 senior clubs and the two Dundee clubs are near at hand. I don't necessarly want these clubs to vanish. They are important focal points for the communities but a place in a structured set up should be found for them to reflect their status.
Edited by IainG, 5 Jun 2018, 03:58 PM.
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JamesM
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5 Jun 2018, 04:00 PM
Post #1464
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- IainG
- 5 Jun 2018, 03:57 PM
- Hairytoes
- 5 Jun 2018, 02:52 PM
Too many Scottish clubs will always be the issue, some should just merge like Inverness did & like they did maybe bring some football success to their area (if that's what they want?). Lawell has called it correctly in saying the spfl should take the reigns more.
Agree with this. In a small,lightly populated county like Angus for instance there are 4 senior clubs and the two Dundee clubs are near at hand. I don't necessarly want these clubs to vanish. They are important focal points for the communities but a place in a structured set up should be found for them to reflect their status. There is, it's called promotion and relegation.
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IainG
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5 Jun 2018, 04:08 PM
Post #1465
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Ah but I was so much older then,I'm younger than that now
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- JamesM
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:00 PM
- IainG
- 5 Jun 2018, 03:57 PM
- Hairytoes
- 5 Jun 2018, 02:52 PM
Too many Scottish clubs will always be the issue, some should just merge like Inverness did & like they did maybe bring some football success to their area (if that's what they want?). Lawell has called it correctly in saying the spfl should take the reigns more.
Agree with this. In a small,lightly populated county like Angus for instance there are 4 senior clubs and the two Dundee clubs are near at hand. I don't necessarly want these clubs to vanish. They are important focal points for the communities but a place in a structured set up should be found for them to reflect their status.
There is, it's called promotion and relegation. True, but Brechin City were promoted to the Championship last season and won not a single game. What's the point in that? I don't know the answer btw.
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littlegmbhoy
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5 Jun 2018, 04:11 PM
Post #1466
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- IainG
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:08 PM
- JamesM
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:00 PM
- IainG
- 5 Jun 2018, 03:57 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deepa place in a structured set up should be found for them to reflect their status.
There is, it's called promotion and relegation.  True, but Brechin City were promoted to the Championship last season and won not a single game. What's the point in that? I don't know the answer btw. Aye the Annan geezer/chairman was on some committee making decisions about us & Rangers (new one)...
FFS Alan McRae was Cove Ragerrs chairman before SFA chairman.
Nonsense set up.
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Butters
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5 Jun 2018, 04:23 PM
Post #1467
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If we can vote to send Sevco to the third division despite Sky wanting 4 Celtic - Rangers games surely we could vote to have only 2 Celtoic - Sevco games a year.
It's the other 10 clubs who want their 2 home games against us & Sevco that are the problem.
If the SPFL want to stop Celtic winning the league having everyone play us only twice rather than 4 times would help the challenger whoever they may be.
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pieol
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5 Jun 2018, 04:27 PM
Post #1468
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- littlegmbhoy
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:11 PM
- IainG
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:08 PM
- JamesM
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:00 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deepa place in a structured set up should be found for them to reflect their status.
 True, but Brechin City were promoted to the Championship last season and won not a single game. What's the point in that? I don't know the answer btw.
Aye the Annan geezer/chairman was on some committee making decisions about us & Rangers (new one)... FFS Alan McRae was Cove Ragerrs chairman before SFA chairman. Nonsense set up. Being Cove Rangers chairman shouldn't preclude him from being high up in the SFA. Some of the best administrators will be at lower league clubs.
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Forza
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5 Jun 2018, 04:34 PM
Post #1469
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- Butters
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:23 PM
If we can vote to send Sevco to the third division despite Sky wanting 4 Celtic - Rangers games surely we could vote to have only 2 Celtoic - Sevco games a year.
It's the other 10 clubs who want their 2 home games against us & Sevco that are the problem.
If the SPFL want to stop Celtic winning the league having everyone play us only twice rather than 4 times would help the challenger whoever they may be. Except it is now a 42 team league, with 42 clubs getting to vote on the entire structure.
This seems such a simple point, but appears to be totally misunderstood. You make changes to the top flight, you make changes to the entire set up. As much as plenty won't give a toss about that, it is as important to the clubs in the lower leagues as it is to clubs in the top flight.
So in order to pass any vote for something like that you'd need a qualified majority of 42 clubs, with every last one one of them justifiably asking what was in it for them.
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pieol
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5 Jun 2018, 04:40 PM
Post #1470
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- Forza
- 5 Jun 2018, 01:11 PM
- TheScotsman
- 5 Jun 2018, 12:54 PM
- pieol
- 5 Jun 2018, 12:07 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep Spoiler: click to toggle Aberdeen Celtic Dundee Dundee United Dunfermline Hamilton Hearts Hibernian Kilmarnock Livingstone Motherwell Partick Thistle Rangers Ross County St. Johnstone St. Mirren
with Inverness just missing out. The second Flight would then be
Airdrieonians Albion Rovers Alloa Athletic Arbroath Ayr United Brechin Dumbarton East Fife Falkirk Forfar Athletic Greenock Morton Inverness CT Queen's Park Queen of the South Raith Rovers Stranraer
then existing league 2 and highland-lowland.
Interesting, not seen this type of proposal before So the top 2 of each group go through, how would the groups be organised? How would the 4 groups of 6 be selected? How would you satisfy the 4 Celtic Sevco TV requirements, by always keeping the two together in a group? What incentive is there to do well in the group, a lot of effort spent and you go back to zero afterwards? Where would the 4 losers go when they don’t make the final 8 league? I like it but A serious flaw here is that Aberdeen’s, Hibs etc face the prospect of going from playing Celtic 4 times a season to twice a season and at worst zero, if they have a slip up in the first round, this surely makes it even less likely to be acceptable to them An idea I’ve seen before that sounded appealing was where two upper divisions of 16 split into three x 8 halfway The top league of 8 fights on for 1st place and Europe The middle 8 jostle for position in next years divisions (ie top 4 are in premiership and bottom 4 in championship next year) Bottom 8 try to avoid relegation Thinking it though though, that’s 44 games
Two upper divisions of 16 becoming three leagues of 8?  What happens to the other 8 clubs? By the way, apart from the premise that there are two leagues of 16 (it was actually two leagues of 12) this is exactly the SPL (as it was) proposal voted down by St Mirren and Ross County in early 2013 in acrimonious circumstances. You can rule out any of this sort of stuff while the SPFL are trying to thrash out major TV and commercial rights deals. Potential partners want to know what they are buying. Certainty and stability in other words. That's why the newly formed SPFL put a moratorium on reconstruction talk for a few years after it was formed. Couldn't care less if we only play sevco twice a year and as Butters pointed out above we managed 4 years without them in our league. Anyway, this new incarnation will be gone soon  Idea of my set up is to give more teams, more chance to play the bigger clubs and participation in the top league. Seeding could come into it so that the top four teams are kept apart. Incentive is to finish in the top two. 10 game groups doesn't give a lot of room for complacency except for Celtic hopefully. Do you think Kilmarnock would beat ICT or Morton or Ayr any easier than Ross County or Hamilton? This would create a pre season of meaning before the main season. It won't happen as the present system is probably seen as best of a bad lot.
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littlegmbhoy
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5 Jun 2018, 04:42 PM
Post #1471
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- pieol
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:27 PM
- littlegmbhoy
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:11 PM
- IainG
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:08 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deepa place in a structured set up should be found for them to reflect their status.
Aye the Annan geezer/chairman was on some committee making decisions about us & Rangers (new one)... FFS Alan McRae was Cove Ragerrs chairman before SFA chairman. Nonsense set up.
Being Cove Rangers chairman shouldn't preclude him from being high up in the SFA. Some of the best administrators will be at lower league clubs. IMO it should. What does he know about the larger clubs and their needs? He has never ran one nor has any idea what it takes for revenues and growth with at times hundreds of thousands of followers.
Say what we you want about Petire but he has an idea about how to run things & will ahev a better acumen at that level.
Smaller clubs should have no bearing on decisions that effect the top tier.
Classic eaxmple is Cowdenbeath winning 4 games all season..yet dont get booted out of the league.
Or indeed getting his pal Mcleish (Mcrae was his testimonail chairman) the manager gig.
No other business nor organisation would it be acceptable with our 40 odd teams playing in 4 leagues. Its literally insane.
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TheScotsman
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5 Jun 2018, 04:43 PM
Post #1472
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Everyone's Fantasy Football first pick
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- Forza
- 5 Jun 2018, 01:11 PM
- TheScotsman
- 5 Jun 2018, 12:54 PM
- pieol
- 5 Jun 2018, 12:07 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep Spoiler: click to toggle Aberdeen Celtic Dundee Dundee United Dunfermline Hamilton Hearts Hibernian Kilmarnock Livingstone Motherwell Partick Thistle Rangers Ross County St. Johnstone St. Mirren
with Inverness just missing out. The second Flight would then be
Airdrieonians Albion Rovers Alloa Athletic Arbroath Ayr United Brechin Dumbarton East Fife Falkirk Forfar Athletic Greenock Morton Inverness CT Queen's Park Queen of the South Raith Rovers Stranraer
then existing league 2 and highland-lowland.
Interesting, not seen this type of proposal before So the top 2 of each group go through, how would the groups be organised? How would the 4 groups of 6 be selected? How would you satisfy the 4 Celtic Sevco TV requirements, by always keeping the two together in a group? What incentive is there to do well in the group, a lot of effort spent and you go back to zero afterwards? Where would the 4 losers go when they don’t make the final 8 league? I like it but A serious flaw here is that Aberdeen’s, Hibs etc face the prospect of going from playing Celtic 4 times a season to twice a season and at worst zero, if they have a slip up in the first round, this surely makes it even less likely to be acceptable to them An idea I’ve seen before that sounded appealing was where two upper divisions of 16 split into three x 8 halfway The top league of 8 fights on for 1st place and Europe The middle 8 jostle for position in next years divisions (ie top 4 are in premiership and bottom 4 in championship next year) Bottom 8 try to avoid relegation Thinking it though though, that’s 44 games
Two upper divisions of 16 becoming three leagues of 8?  What happens to the other 8 clubs? By the way, apart from the premise that there are two leagues of 16 (it was actually two leagues of 12) this is exactly the SPL (as it was) proposal voted down by St Mirren and Ross County in early 2013 in acrimonious circumstances. You can rule out any of this sort of stuff while the SPFL are trying to thrash out major TV and commercial rights deals. Potential partners want to know what they are buying. Certainty and stability in other words. That's why the newly formed SPFL put a moratorium on reconstruction talk for a few years after it was formed. That was it, 2 x 12 becomes 3 x 8! I think I the split has worked well this year, focusssing the top 6 on qualification for europe The top 8 would work well and removes the only problem - the IMbalanced matches The 2nd 8 would be interesting but how should points from the previous matches be carried forward? Not sure how much interest those at the top of the bottom 8 would have but there’s still relegation to avoid
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pieol
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5 Jun 2018, 04:46 PM
Post #1473
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- Forza
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:34 PM
- Butters
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:23 PM
If we can vote to send Sevco to the third division despite Sky wanting 4 Celtic - Rangers games surely we could vote to have only 2 Celtoic - Sevco games a year.
It's the other 10 clubs who want their 2 home games against us & Sevco that are the problem.
If the SPFL want to stop Celtic winning the league having everyone play us only twice rather than 4 times would help the challenger whoever they may be.
Except it is now a 42 team league, with 42 clubs getting to vote on the entire structure. This seems such a simple point, but appears to be totally misunderstood. You make changes to the top flight, you make changes to the entire set up. As much as plenty won't give a toss about that, it is as important to the clubs in the lower leagues as it is to clubs in the top flight. So in order to pass any vote for something like that you'd need a qualified majority of 42 clubs, with every last one one of them justifiably asking what was in it for them. Hopefully a new set up would see ambitious, well run clubs (Spartans and the like) rise quickly and clubs like Dundee Utd less dependent on achieving that one guaranteed promotion spot every year. The way I see it there are at least 12 clubs at the bottom of the top league and in the championship who are on a par. So every year could see 3-4 different teams in a Top 8 league along with the usual suspects. Playing teams less might even generate more interest and atmosphere.
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pieol
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5 Jun 2018, 04:51 PM
Post #1474
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- littlegmbhoy
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:42 PM
- pieol
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:27 PM
- littlegmbhoy
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:11 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deepa place in a structured set up should be found for them to reflect their status.
Being Cove Rangers chairman shouldn't preclude him from being high up in the SFA. Some of the best administrators will be at lower league clubs.
IMO it should. What does he know about the larger clubs and their needs? He has never ran one nor has any idea what it takes for revenues and growth with at times hundreds of thousnads of followers. Say waht we you want about Petire but he has an idea about how to run things & will ahev a better acumen at that level. Smaller clubs should have no bearing on decisions that effect the top tier. Classic eaxmple is Cowdenbeath winning 4 games all season..yet dont get booted out of the league. Or indeed getting his pal Mcleish (Mcrae was his testimonail chairman) the manager gig. No other business nor organisation would it be acceptable with our 40 odd teams playing in 4 leagues. Its literally insane. You do know that some of these chairmen have huge experience of business away from football. Roy McGregor and Turnbull Hutton at Raith Rovers for example. Not defending McRae cause he does seem like a typical blazer.
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littlegmbhoy
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5 Jun 2018, 05:05 PM
Post #1475
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- pieol
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:51 PM
- littlegmbhoy
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:42 PM
- pieol
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:27 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deepa place in a structured set up should be found for them to reflect their status.
IMO it should. What does he know about the larger clubs and their needs? He has never ran one nor has any idea what it takes for revenues and growth with at times hundreds of thousnads of followers. Say what we you want about Petire but he has an idea about how to run things & will ahev a better acumen at that level. Smaller clubs should have no bearing on decisions that effect the top tier. Classic eaxmple is Cowdenbeath winning 4 games all season..yet dont get booted out of the league. Or indeed getting his pal Mcleish (Mcrae was his testimonail chairman) the manager gig. No other business nor organisation would it be acceptable with our 40 odd teams playing in 4 leagues. Its literally insane.
You do know that some of these chairmen have huge experience of business away from football. Roy McGregor and Turnbull Hutton at Raith Rovers for example. Not defending McRae cause he does seem like a typical blazer. Yep the do but two man and his dog chairman of Arbroath or Cove Rangers should in no way influence decisions that effect us or any SPFL Premier. team.
Alan Sugar had Spurs in the 90's but football people around him at the time said he was clueless in running a team......
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33-rpm
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5 Jun 2018, 06:48 PM
Post #1476
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Still we sing with our heroes, thirty-three-rounds-per-minute
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Only a couple of months after Brendan Rodgers raised the issue. I wonder what Craig Levein will have to say about this
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PFA calls for action over pitches
Fraser Wishart, the chief executive of PFA Scotland, the players’ union, has challenged the Scottish Football Association to introduce rules specifying that member clubs must have playing surfaces fit for purpose.
He has insisted that, until Scottish football’s governing body makes it mandatory for clubs to reach a minimum standard, the national game will continue to decline.
The SFA has helped to fund the PFA’s season-long survey of its members, who were asked to rate the pitches of Scotland’s 42 senior clubs on a weekly basis. The three venues which scored highest last season will all be hosting games in Ladbrokes League Two next season. Stirling Albion’s Forthbank claimed top spot, followed by Peterhead’s Balmoor Stadium and then Queen’s Park, who play at Hampden.
Next season a quarter of the clubs in the top tier will have artificial pitches. Hamilton Academical’s pitch was voted the worst in the country in 2017-18, while Kilmarnock’s came 40th. Livingston, whose grass pitch was included in the top 20, are laying a synthetic surface for the forthcoming campaign.
Wishart, meanwhile, would welcome the SFA including pitch maintenance as part of their licensing criteria. “The SFA already do club licensing, so they have regulations in place that they could enforce but I think that the SPFL [Scottish Professional Football League] and the club owners need to look at what they’re doing at the highest level,” he said.
“Even in the Championship, the non-grass pitches didn’t come out very well. The truth of the matter is that [artificial pitches] wear out and our members want to see some action now. They want to see standardisation brought in and regulations to enforce it at the highest level.”
Link (paywall)
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Pussyfoot
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5 Jun 2018, 06:51 PM
Post #1477
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- Forza
- 5 Jun 2018, 09:13 AM
- Pussyfoot
- 4 Jun 2018, 06:53 PM
- Mickeybhoy84
- 4 Jun 2018, 06:36 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Well let's simplify that whole process and get rid of what's not working, they are an affront to the game and the players too apparently going with what's been mentioned in a post above. Some matters are a can of worms and unpopular, the solution is simplify, go with what's wanted, attractive and has worked. Upgrade and innovate if something improves the game and cash is there, as we are doing for next season.
These clubs have simplified it. The move to an artificial surface is financially driven. There is nothing more simple than putting something in place to help your bottom line. Putting in a top notch natural grass Desso pitch with synthetic fibres, first class drainage, undersoil heating and artificial lighting rigs all costs a lot of money. Even if you don't go down the Desso route, it is still a considerable expense. Dundee have one of the best pitches in the League. Over the past couple of years that club has been run at a considerable loss. Motherwell have probably covered themselves from a financial loss with two cup final appearances. To an English Premier League club or Celtic, this is small percentage of annual spend. To a club like Livingston or Hamilton, it is a massive outlay. Thistle spent nearly £500,000 overhauling their pitch in 2016. Money well spent you might say. All it seemed to do was ensure stronger opposition teams knocked the ball about better on their surface and inflicted more defeats leading to them being relegated. Everyone would like to see natural grass pitches across the league. But everyone would also like those pitches to be in good nick from December to March. Unless and until the financial conditions within the SPFL improve, this will continue. We've went from 10k all seater requirement to multi use plastic crap in a decade. Ludicrous in each extreme and a boon for clubs who can save a few quid on their rivals who must be mulling over the wisdom of putting players and fans first. We've so many games on plastic it must be a factor in recruitment now, these clubs are dictating transfer policy of their contemporaries.
Paying money for a ticket to watch games on this plastic is gutting because the quality is substandard, it is abominable.
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Pussyfoot
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6 Jun 2018, 07:43 AM
Post #1478
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Hamilton spending around 750,000 to enhance the plastic experience.
How much was it they lost in that fraud again? Was it not 750,000?
This the club that cannot afford grass.
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smudgethecat
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6 Jun 2018, 07:59 AM
Post #1479
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- Butters
- 5 Jun 2018, 04:23 PM
If we can vote to send Sevco to the third division despite Sky wanting 4 Celtic - Rangers games surely we could vote to have only 2 Celtoic - Sevco games a year.
It's the other 10 clubs who want their 2 home games against us & Sevco that are the problem.
If the SPFL want to stop Celtic winning the league having everyone play us only twice rather than 4 times would help the challenger whoever they may be. Hang on, no one voted Sevco to the third division. Glasgow Rangers were liquidated. Sevco applied for a license and were granted it. They began like any other new team in the third division. It's not difficult to understand.
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Dubz
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6 Jun 2018, 08:02 AM
Post #1480
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- IainG
- 5 Jun 2018, 03:57 PM
- Hairytoes
- 5 Jun 2018, 02:52 PM
Too many Scottish clubs will always be the issue, some should just merge like Inverness did & like they did maybe bring some football success to their area (if that's what they want?). Lawell has called it correctly in saying the spfl should take the reigns more.
Agree with this. In a small,lightly populated county like Angus for instance there are 4 senior clubs and the two Dundee clubs are near at hand. I don't necessarly want these clubs to vanish. They are important focal points for the communities but a place in a structured set up should be found for them to reflect their status. Those four clubs are only important for the cheating bastards who throw games against each other so they can win big at the bookies every month. Carrots.
Bomb ra lot o them.
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