Celtic's birthplace: St Mary's Hall, the Calton

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Celtic's birthplace: St Mary's Hall, the Calton; Hall or Nothing . . . info still needed
Topic Started: 14 Jun 2010, 12:51 AM (51,865 Views)
Carfin Harp	14 Jun 2010, 12:51 AM Post #1
First-team starter Posts: 952 Group: Members Member #22,189 Joined: 7 October 2008 Favourite all-time player The Maestro	Have you ever seen a photo of the church hall where Celtic were founded in November 1887? I never have, which I've always found strange since I believe the building was still standing until recently. Photos of the iconic frontage of St Mary's Church, Abercromby Street, are of course quite common in Celtic history publications. I've long wondered as to the exact location of the hall. Most reports say it was on East Rose Street, now Forbes Street, the road to the right of the church building. However, when you look at old photos, it doesn't look as though there was sufficient space between St. Mary's School and the rear of the church to accommodate a hall. Having asked before some former St Mary's pupils confirmed that the hall was in fact on Orr Street, at the end of Forbes Street, in a building which is still standing with the wording 'The Schoolhouse' on it. (See http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk/topic/541239/1/) I've been checking out the excellent Celtic Viewer over the weekend and came across the film that the club made back in 1967 called 'The Celtic Story' (I remember seeing a pirate VHS copy of this back in the '80s!!). Near the start, after the first interview with Sir Robert Kelly, it shows footage of the East End of Glasgow and then it shows a building, focusing in on a room 1 or 2 storeys up. The narrator (I fear this is Gerry McNee) then says: "It is here that Celtic have their roots. It was in this room that they were founded in 1888." There is then footage from the inside of the room looking out on to the street below. Can anyone confirm if this is the same building as 'The Schoolhouse' on Orr Street today? Anyone know anything about which room it might be? It's driving me to prayer, I tell thee! Cheers, CH Check it out at 5.45 mins in: http://viewer.celticfc.net/Historic_Content.php?movieid=308



Otis B Driftwood	14 Jun 2010, 12:31 PM Post #2
I'd cut my Ri' Han' Off for a rumba Posts: 8,696 Group: Snr. Member Member #25,838 Joined: 6 April 2010 Favourite all-time player Jimmy Johnstone	Corner of Forbes Street/Orr Street (junction behind St. Mary's Church on Abercrombie Street). The school was between the Church and the hall; there was access to the hall directly from the school, which used it for prize-giving, etc. It was also used to host the Glasgow Catholic Schools FA award ceremonies. Edited by Otis B Driftwood, 14 Jun 2010, 12:33 PM.



Carfin Harp	14 Jun 2010, 01:27 PM Post #3
First-team starter Posts: 952 Group: Members Member #22,189 Joined: 7 October 2008 Favourite all-time player The Maestro	So the church hall was to the right of the school in this pic then Otis?



Ally Les Verts	14 Jun 2010, 01:29 PM Post #4
Piemans zombie army.. Posts: 15,733 Group: Snr. Member Member #3,264 Joined: 5 March 2006 Twitter Name AllyLesVerts



Ally Les Verts	14 Jun 2010, 01:42 PM Post #5
Piemans zombie army.. Posts: 15,733 Group: Snr. Member Member #3,264 Joined: 5 March 2006 Twitter Name AllyLesVerts



Otis B Driftwood	14 Jun 2010, 01:51 PM Post #6
I'd cut my Ri' Han' Off for a rumba Posts: 8,696 Group: Snr. Member Member #25,838 Joined: 6 April 2010 Favourite all-time player Jimmy Johnstone	Carfin Harp 14 Jun 2010, 01:27 PM So the church hall was to the right of the school in this pic then Otis? Yes; and that's a playground on the roof!!! I can see my old classroom there!!!



A Burning Pride	14 Jun 2010, 02:14 PM Post #7
Getting on a bit Posts: 5,749 Group: Snr. Member Member #336 Joined: 6 November 2004	I love this type of stuff, im still researching the very early years of our club Just to add a wee bit of provenance, I've just scanned this for you from The Scottish Umpire (newspaper) January 24th 1888 Quote: On Thursday last, the first general monthly meeting of the "Celtic" Football and Athletic Club was held in the Hall, East Rose Street (Cal- ton). There was a large turn-out of members and patrons. The various committes submitted their reports, which were considered extremely satis- factory. The convener of the Park Committee, Mr. Brien, said that, if all went well, the ground would be ready for play in a few weeks. The pitch is finished, the paling well nigh up, and the grand stand-capable of accomodating from 800 to 1000-would be begun in th course of the ensuing week. A good few members were en- rolled; and several genlemen, who are much interested in the welfare of the "Celts," handed in their donations. The committee meet every Thursday evening in the Hall, East Rose Street. Altogether, the "Celtic" bids fair to be a great success. It is expected that the committee will put a first-class team on the field for the coming season. The secretary is Mr. J. O'Hare, 77 East Rose Street, Calton



spikeybhoy	14 Jun 2010, 03:10 PM Post #8
Getting noticed in the reserves Posts: 87 Group: Members Member #2,888 Joined: 25 January 2006	The only thing wrong there is that The Secretary was actually John O'Hara of 77 East Rose Street, Calton (not John O'Hare). It's important that such vital pieces of our family's history aren't given up to typographical error.



A Burning Pride	14 Jun 2010, 03:23 PM Post #9
Getting on a bit Posts: 5,749 Group: Snr. Member Member #336 Joined: 6 November 2004	spikeybhoy 14 Jun 2010, 03:10 PM The only thing wrong there is that The Secretary was actually John O'Hara of 77 East Rose Street, Calton (not John O'Hare). It's important that such vital pieces of our family's history aren't given up to typographical error. Very well spotted spikey But you do agree the original mistake is in the newspaper from 1888 and not introduced by myself ? I wonder if the original reporter/sub could ever imagined that Celtic would eventually mean so much to so many that over a hundred yeas after he penned this, that two guys woudl be discussing an error in his type. Amazing stuff.



A Burning Pride	14 Jun 2010, 03:26 PM Post #10
Getting on a bit Posts: 5,749 Group: Snr. Member Member #336 Joined: 6 November 2004	CH I found these for you, I dont know the area well enough to say if the hall is in these pics but perhaps some of the other members maybe able to say for sure. http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/



Carfin Harp	14 Jun 2010, 03:29 PM Post #11
First-team starter Posts: 952 Group: Members Member #22,189 Joined: 7 October 2008 Favourite all-time player The Maestro	Cheers Bhoys. All the references to the club's foundation clearly state that the hall was on East Rose Street as does that one from Antsplan. The school that put some moral fibre into the bold Otis' backbone and many others was built in 1913 (according to St Mary's website: http://www.saintmarycalton.org.uk/school/New.html). The original "St Mary�s School for boys, girls and infants was built in 1850 behind St Mary�s Church. The building was one large room with a gallery at one end for the infants" (same source). Here's a detailed street map of the East End in 1893 which clearly shows 'St Mary's Hall' on Henrietta Street (later changed to Orr Street) with a school building between it and the church (you may have to zoom in): http://www.nls.uk/maps/townplans/view/?sid=74416963&mid=glasgow_2_northeast If the film 'The Celtic Story' was correct then it looks as though the Club's founders met in the building which is still standing on Orr Street called 'The Schoolhouse' (mostly social work offices in it I think). That doesn't explain why all the newspaper references and accounts by the club refer to the hall as being on East Rose Street. Could that be a hall at the very rear of the church building linking the church with the school in 1893? All contributions gratefully received!



spikeybhoy	14 Jun 2010, 03:33 PM Post #12
Getting noticed in the reserves Posts: 87 Group: Members Member #2,888 Joined: 25 January 2006	Antsplan, you're absolutely right, the error was The Scottish Umpire's. Good luck with the book. Any help I can be with the O'Hara family history just let me know.



A Burning Pride	14 Jun 2010, 03:37 PM Post #13
Getting on a bit Posts: 5,749 Group: Snr. Member Member #336 Joined: 6 November 2004	spikeybhoy 14 Jun 2010, 03:33 PM Antsplan, you're absolutely right, the error was The Scottish Umpire's. Good luck with the book. Any help I can be with the O'Hara family history just let me know. Thank you spikey, I'd love to hear anything you know Incidentally i'm not doing a book mate, I'm just pulling together any and all references I can find relating to Celtic 1887-1890, hopefully all for the good people of KDS.



paulmck1888	14 Jun 2010, 03:40 PM Post #14
Celtic first, Celtic last, Celtic overall Posts: 6,168 Group: Snr. Member Member #149 Joined: 3 September 2004	I worked with a guy who was a passkeper at St Mary's a couple of years ago and I remember him saying that the church has old files and notes of the meetings which took place in Celtic's early days stored away somewhere. Never did find out if he was at it or not.



A Burning Pride	14 Jun 2010, 03:40 PM Post #15
Getting on a bit Posts: 5,749 Group: Snr. Member Member #336 Joined: 6 November 2004	Carfin Harp 14 Jun 2010, 03:29 PM Cheers Bhoys. All the references to the club's foundation clearly state that the hall was on East Rose Street as does that one from Antsplan. The school that put some moral fibre into the bold Otis' backbone and many others was built in 1913 (according to St Mary's website: http://www.saintmarycalton.org.uk/school/New.html). The original "St Mary�s School for boys, girls and infants was built in 1850 behind St Mary�s Church. The building was one large room with a gallery at one end for the infants" (same source). Here's a detailed street map of the East End in 1893 which clearly shows 'St Mary's Hall' on Henrietta Street (later changed to Orr Street) with a school building between it and the church (you may have to zoom in): http://www.nls.uk/maps/townplans/view/?sid=74416963&mid=glasgow_2_northeast If the film 'The Celtic Story' was correct then it looks as though the Club's founders met in the building which is still standing on Orr Street called 'The Schoolhouse' (mostly social work offices in it I think). That doesn't explain why all the newspaper references and accounts by the club refer to the hall as being on East Rose Street. Could that be a hall at the very rear of the church building linking the church with the school in 1893? All contributions gratefully received! I've just had a look at the map, thats Unless someone can tell you that your mistaken, I really think you should approach the club with this. BTW as a side note there is a piece of stone, turned into a Celtic Cross from when the building was supposedly demolished sitting in the Club board room right now.



Ally Les Verts	14 Jun 2010, 04:04 PM Post #16
Piemans zombie army.. Posts: 15,733 Group: Snr. Member Member #3,264 Joined: 5 March 2006 Twitter Name AllyLesVerts	Antsplan 14 Jun 2010, 03:40 PM BTW as a side note there is a piece of stone, turned into a Celtic Cross from when the building was supposedly demolished sitting in the Club board room right now. I'm sure they made a limited number of them to be sold off for charity.



Carfin Harp	14 Jun 2010, 05:26 PM Post #17
First-team starter Posts: 952 Group: Members Member #22,189 Joined: 7 October 2008 Favourite all-time player The Maestro	The Walfrid Stone is impressive, the web site is still live: http://walfridstone.com/about.html It states on the site that the "parish hall" was demolished in 2004. Looks as though this was to do with clearing the land for use as flats to the side and round the rear of the church (between there and The Schoolhouse), although that project seems to have stalled. St Mary's were also selling slates a while back from the original parish hall with gold writing on them confirming their source in order to raise funds. This indicates that the parish hall is different from the St. Mary's Hall indicated on the 1893 map then? Confused.com



A Burning Pride	14 Jun 2010, 07:35 PM Post #18
Getting on a bit Posts: 5,749 Group: Snr. Member Member #336 Joined: 6 November 2004	Right CH, this has really got me intrigued. The big issue I have is that I cant believe that Celtic and the other sources of the time would get this wrong, i.e. the address of the 'hall'. I understand that its commom thinking that the original 'hall is demolished ? Apologies for the size of this but I think we may get answer in here, perhaps ? The earliest map (top left) has a reference to 'orphans hall' with what appears to be no direct entrance (im suspecting it may be via the vestry on E Rose Street ?), this building is also roughly where ALV says 'our' hall should be. Up to 1877 (top right) the footprint of the buildings doesnt appear to have changed. Then pretty major changes by 1892-94 (middle right). Obviously this is after the period (87/88) when the first meetings took place so it is possible that the hall could have moved by this time ? I believe 'our' hall is/was the one I have marked with a C in the 92/94 map. I think you are correct in that the existing Schoolhouse building did house what is known as St Marys Hall (a newer hall, i believe). Run a line from the North end of the Google Map satellite view of the present schoolhouse to the north end of the current Chapel house (1892 rectory) and the Schoolhouse does appear to sit on the footprint of the (newer) St Marys Hall and the Saw Mill. This is all just my opinion of course and I'm very happy to be corrected. I'm trying to get you a picture of 'our' hall but have drawn a blank with Celtic, (who dont have a picture), but hopefully I have a few more places I can try. Great thread, thanks for posting your stuff.



nowonder	14 Jun 2010, 08:08 PM Post #19
Considering retirement Posts: 7,165 Group: Snr. Member Member #3,830 Joined: 11 May 2006	Interesting.St Mary's seemed to think it was the demolished hall though and you would think they would know..



paulmck1888	14 Jun 2010, 08:09 PM Post #20
Celtic first, Celtic last, Celtic overall Posts: 6,168 Group: Snr. Member Member #149 Joined: 3 September 2004	Heres a couple more I found, first one from the 50s... ..and this one I think from the 70's, its very blurry...



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