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John McGinn; Initial bid rejected by Hibs (confirmed by Garry Parker)
Topic Started: 4 Jul 2018, 09:10 PM (37,919 Views)
evan15
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Forza
5 Jul 2018, 11:40 AM
Masterplanner
5 Jul 2018, 11:26 AM
Forza
5 Jul 2018, 11:12 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
You think these gripes with Gordon are because he's Scottish?
Hendry gets worse treatment than Boyata?
Ralston & Christie who have shown little on loan?
A lot of players have their detractors, but if you think fans base their opinions on the players you mention due to their nationality you're very wrong IMO, as I'd say most could argue their points without having to mention nationality
Gordon gets a lot of flak. Some because of errors (despite many excellent stops that have saved us). Some of it is because of his previous at the Diets. It would be ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

Hendry, with 11 Celtic games under his belt, gets worse treatment than Boyata, when he had 11 Celtic games under his belt. I don't think that is in any doubt. Totally written off, despite the fact people will feel justified about that.

Ralston was credited with turning around Dundee United's season and saving their manager's job, but fair enough he didn't obviously do much.

Christie won Aberdeen's 2016/17 Player of the Year despite being a loan player, but again, I guess he's not done too much. This is a club that finished second in everything to us in an undefeated Treble season. Certainly not enough to give him any credit obviously.
Have to agree with this.

Especially on Hendry. Did anyone see Wanyama after 11 games and think he's a world beater? Same with Dembele.
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tonyjaa-csc
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jimmy123411
5 Jul 2018, 11:37 AM
If remy is correct I wonder why hibs are not interested in scott allan

Probably a wage thing
Apparently on 7k a week
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weebaldy
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Andy Robertson, Shay Given and James McArthur, just three young players who were seen as not being good enough for Celtic but have done well in the Premiership. McGinn could fall into that category so I think it would be worth the gamble and, if it doesn't work, just sell him to Southampton for a profit :lol:
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Forza
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remy mcswain
5 Jul 2018, 11:28 AM
Forza
5 Jul 2018, 11:26 AM
remy mcswain
5 Jul 2018, 11:19 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Yeah, you're right. You didn't say he was pish.

You said he was was "effing abysmal."

Griffiths, Gordon, Armstrong are just three examples of players plenty put in that same "not good enough for Celtic" category.

The SPFL may not be any kind of high watermark, but I am guessing that if you could ask Brown or plenty other senior Celtic players if they could take one player from the rest of the League (especially now that Armstrong has gone), McGinn would probably feature highest. Call it gut feeling and not evidential, but there's a respect there.

Compare and contrast with Brown's comments about Shinnie last season.
I said he was abysmal in one specific game. A game you mentioned as Hibs beat a team from a higher league.

You should stop now. You love him. I don't. You believe he will be a success. I hope he will.

I acknowledged they lost that semi final. You seem unwilling to acknowledge any of the big games McGinn has played in and won, going back to when he was 18. Like he never played a role in any of them.

McGinn still has plenty flaws that, if not put right, will cause difficulty if he wants to step up consistently. I don't believe them to be insurmountable around better coaches and players, which is a fairly logical position to take. Based on his other obvious attributes, it's a no brainer given the likely outlay.

Maybe you should stop? In fact, maybe you should have stopped after Armstrong. Or Gordon. Or Griffiths. You didn't rate them. They've done well.
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DanBhoy
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McGinn isn't going to be a starter when everyone is fit, so I think he would be a more than handy squad player.

Got to remember just how many games we'll be playing if we make it to the group stages of either European tournament (Not something mad like 38 games before Christmas if we make it to the League cup final as well?), so having someone that can play one of the two CM positions well is a nice bonus, as opposed to maybe putting McGregor deeper.

Considering we made £7 million on Armstrong, using a a third of that on McGinn wouldn't be the worst business we could be doing in all honesty. If he plays well for us then it'll be good business, and if he bombs then he'll more than likely go to the Championship for a million or so. Really don't see why folk are wetting their knickers over this.
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SaMule
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evan15
5 Jul 2018, 11:42 AM
Forza
5 Jul 2018, 11:40 AM
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5 Jul 2018, 11:26 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Gordon gets a lot of flak. Some because of errors (despite many excellent stops that have saved us). Some of it is because of his previous at the Diets. It would be ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

Hendry, with 11 Celtic games under his belt, gets worse treatment than Boyata, when he had 11 Celtic games under his belt. I don't think that is in any doubt. Totally written off, despite the fact people will feel justified about that.

Ralston was credited with turning around Dundee United's season and saving their manager's job, but fair enough he didn't obviously do much.

Christie won Aberdeen's 2016/17 Player of the Year despite being a loan player, but again, I guess he's not done too much. This is a club that finished second in everything to us in an undefeated Treble season. Certainly not enough to give him any credit obviously.
Have to agree with this.

Especially on Hendry. Did anyone see Wanyama after 11 games and think he's a world beater? Same with Dembele.
Er, yes actually. Dembele was clearly going to be a big talent right from the start. Wanyama did take a little bit longer to impress, but only because we kept trying to make him play centre half to begin with. Once he was in midfield, it was obvious that he was a good 'un.

I'm willing to give Hendry et al a chance because some do come on to a game later than others, but Dembele and Wanyama are poor examples to give.

Edit - for the record, the game we beat the huns 5-1 at Celtic Park and Dembele scored a hat-trick was our 11th competitive game of the season. I can't be bothered checking if Dembele had played in all of the previous 10.
Edited by SaMule, 5 Jul 2018, 12:00 PM.
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evan15
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SaMule
5 Jul 2018, 11:55 AM
evan15
5 Jul 2018, 11:42 AM
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5 Jul 2018, 11:40 AM

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Have to agree with this.

Especially on Hendry. Did anyone see Wanyama after 11 games and think he's a world beater? Same with Dembele.
Er, yes actually. Dembele was clearly going to be a big talent right from the start. Wanyama did take a little bit longer to impress, but only because we kept trying to make him play centre half to begin with. Once he was in midfield, it was obvious that he was a good 'un.

I'm willing to give Hendry et al a chance because some do come on to a game later than others, but Dembele and Wanyama are poor examples to give.
Each to their own and maybe I'm a poor judge of player but I can remember the grumbles around me in CP about Wanyama until he settled.

Dembele, although potential was clear, was quite poor for his first couple of games. Maybe not 11 but he didn't hit the ground running.

My point being we tend to give players that we have signed outside of Scotland more of a chance to settle than one we sign from our leagues.

Hendry has actually impressed me half the time especially when he came on at Ibrox.
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Luca
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SaMule
5 Jul 2018, 11:55 AM
evan15
5 Jul 2018, 11:42 AM
Forza
5 Jul 2018, 11:40 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Have to agree with this.

Especially on Hendry. Did anyone see Wanyama after 11 games and think he's a world beater? Same with Dembele.
Er, yes actually. Dembele was clearly going to be a big talent right from the start. Wanyama did take a little bit longer to impress, but only because we kept trying to make him play centre half to begin with. Once he was in midfield, it was obvious that he was a good 'un.

I'm willing to give Hendry et al a chance because some do come on to a game later than others, but Dembele and Wanyama are poor examples to give.

Edit - for the record, the game we beat the huns 5-1 at Celtic Park and Dembele scored a hat-trick was our 11th competitive game of the season. I can't be bothered checking if Dembele had played in all of the previous 10.
I remember being a little worried going into that game as Griffiths was injured and Moussa, until that point, hadn't quite looked like a match winner (with the exception of a last minute penalty against Astana).
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SaMule
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evan15
5 Jul 2018, 11:59 AM
SaMule
5 Jul 2018, 11:55 AM
evan15
5 Jul 2018, 11:42 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Er, yes actually. Dembele was clearly going to be a big talent right from the start. Wanyama did take a little bit longer to impress, but only because we kept trying to make him play centre half to begin with. Once he was in midfield, it was obvious that he was a good 'un.

I'm willing to give Hendry et al a chance because some do come on to a game later than others, but Dembele and Wanyama are poor examples to give.
Each to their own and maybe I'm a poor judge of player but I can remember the grumbles around me in CP about Wanyama until he settled.

Dembele, although potential was clear, was quite poor for his first couple of games. Maybe not 11 but he didn't hit the ground running.

My point being we tend to give players that we have signed outside of Scotland more of a chance to settle than one we sign from our leagues.

Hendry has actually impressed me half the time especially when he came on at Ibrox.
See my edit above re Dembele :thumbsup:

I don't remember now how long it took us to get Wanyama playing regularly in midfield, but I know I thought from the first time I saw him there that he looked decent, especially in comparison to his play at centre half which was a bit :twitch:

I agree that we give players signed from outside Scotland more of a chance, but that's usually because we've seen the players who are already in Scotland and it's very rare that any of them really impress against us, so there's a bit of a negative perception already built in.

I think Hendry's got plenty of decent attributes, but he's a way off being ready to play for us regularly from what I've seen. Same as I see McGinn really. Re Hendry though I'm clinging to that old Gareth Bale stat where Spurs never won a game he started for about a year (or maybe they never kept a clean sheet, something like that anyway). NB For the benefit of the hard of thinking I'm not saying that Hendry will ever reach Bale's level, just that it's possible for players to improve.
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SaMule
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Luca
5 Jul 2018, 12:06 PM
SaMule
5 Jul 2018, 11:55 AM
evan15
5 Jul 2018, 11:42 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Er, yes actually. Dembele was clearly going to be a big talent right from the start. Wanyama did take a little bit longer to impress, but only because we kept trying to make him play centre half to begin with. Once he was in midfield, it was obvious that he was a good 'un.

I'm willing to give Hendry et al a chance because some do come on to a game later than others, but Dembele and Wanyama are poor examples to give.

Edit - for the record, the game we beat the huns 5-1 at Celtic Park and Dembele scored a hat-trick was our 11th competitive game of the season. I can't be bothered checking if Dembele had played in all of the previous 10.
I remember being a little worried going into that game as Griffiths was injured and Moussa, until that point, hadn't quite looked like a match winner (with the exception of a last minute penalty against Astana).
It was that last minute penalty which sealed the deal for me. You could already see that he had some ability, but when a teenager who's never scored for us steps up in the 90th minute to score the goal that keeps us in Europe you see that he's got a mentality that can take him to another level. Some cojones on him to take that shot :worthy:
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evan15
5 Jul 2018, 11:59 AM
SaMule
5 Jul 2018, 11:55 AM
evan15
5 Jul 2018, 11:42 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Er, yes actually. Dembele was clearly going to be a big talent right from the start. Wanyama did take a little bit longer to impress, but only because we kept trying to make him play centre half to begin with. Once he was in midfield, it was obvious that he was a good 'un.

I'm willing to give Hendry et al a chance because some do come on to a game later than others, but Dembele and Wanyama are poor examples to give.
Each to their own and maybe I'm a poor judge of player but I can remember the grumbles around me in CP about Wanyama until he settled.

Dembele, although potential was clear, was quite poor for his first couple of games. Maybe not 11 but he didn't hit the ground running.

My point being we tend to give players that we have signed outside of Scotland more of a chance to settle than one we sign from our leagues.

Hendry has actually impressed me half the time especially when he came on at Ibrox.
The accusation that players from Scotland/Ireland/Not Scotland/SPFL/whatever are given more/less time to settle has been thrown around in here in every possible combination over the years. It’s demonstrably nonsense.

Players are judged on what they do. The judgement call might be wrong, but there’s no great mindset that all players from a certain place/league must be pish.
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Paulo1986
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Would he still be eligible for us in Europe if he played for Hibs in the EL next week? I know there were rule changes relating to the two competitions a couple of years ago.
Edited by Paulo1986, 5 Jul 2018, 12:16 PM.
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Rosco67
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weebaldy
5 Jul 2018, 11:46 AM
Andy Robertson, Shay Given and James McArthur, just three young players who were seen as not being good enough for Celtic but have done well in the Premiership. McGinn could fall into that category so I think it would be worth the gamble and, if it doesn't work, just sell him to Southampton for a profit :lol:
James McCarthy would have made for a more compelling argument ;)
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remy mcswain
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Rosco67
5 Jul 2018, 12:16 PM
weebaldy
5 Jul 2018, 11:46 AM
Andy Robertson, Shay Given and James McArthur, just three young players who were seen as not being good enough for Celtic but have done well in the Premiership. McGinn could fall into that category so I think it would be worth the gamble and, if it doesn't work, just sell him to Southampton for a profit :lol:
James McCarthy would have made for a more compelling argument ;)
And Shay Given and Robertson were freed by Celtic.

Apart from that it's compelling stuff.
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Country Mac
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Forza
5 Jul 2018, 11:40 AM
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5 Jul 2018, 11:26 AM
Forza
5 Jul 2018, 11:12 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
You think these gripes with Gordon are because he's Scottish?
Hendry gets worse treatment than Boyata?
Ralston & Christie who have shown little on loan?
A lot of players have their detractors, but if you think fans base their opinions on the players you mention due to their nationality you're very wrong IMO, as I'd say most could argue their points without having to mention nationality
Gordon gets a lot of flak. Some because of errors (despite many excellent stops that have saved us). Some of it is because of his previous at the Diets. It would be ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

Hendry, with 11 Celtic games under his belt, gets worse treatment than Boyata, when he had 11 Celtic games under his belt. I don't think that is in any doubt. Totally written off, despite the fact people will feel justified about that.

Ralston was credited with turning around Dundee United's season and saving their manager's job, but fair enough he didn't obviously do much.

Christie won Aberdeen's 2016/17 Player of the Year despite being a loan player, but again, I guess he's not done too much. This is a club that finished second in everything to us in an undefeated Treble season. Certainly not enough to give him any credit obviously.
Agree completely with this. Gordon and Griffiths get the worst of it. Seems to extend to players bought from Scottish clubs as well. Jonny Hayes was never going to be more than a decent squad player at this age - which he started to show before his injury - but some have already written him off as a total failure on the basis of about 3 months.

Over the last decade, I count three failures we've signed from Scottish teams, or who are best known for playing in Scotland. They are Allan, Ciftci, and Killen. I'd say GMS is borderline but we paid peanuts for him and it probably helped the Armstrong deal along. Christie, Hayes, and Hendry could yet go either way.

Our hit ratio with domestic players is certainly no worse than it is with players brought in from England or abroad. Yet you've still got people genuinely believing Kouassi can replace Brown, or that loaning in some winger from Liverpool who has 22 appearances at age 21, is preferable to developing Morgan or Johnston.
Edited by Country Mac, 5 Jul 2018, 12:18 PM.
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cfc88
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Another who doesn't think he's quite good enough. He's a worker and strong on the ball but I do think he lacks quality. Here's hoping he proves me wrong.
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JeMeSouviens
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Since I've been watching him for years ... I think he'll be a star if he goes to Celtic and you'll all love him. Great long passer, carries the ball extremely well, very strong ball winner and very hard to dispossess (he's worked really hard on upper body strength and it shows). His downsides are he has bad days when his high tempo short passing rythym goes a bit and that he doesn't score enough goals considering the positions he gets into. He's got a brilliant attitude to the game and life in general though.

In terms of our midfield last season, he's not as good at McGeouch at controlling passing tempo and he doesn't play quite as many killer passes as Allan, but he is easily the most complete player we had. With better players around him, he'll look even better.

Obviously Hibs can't command big fees because of where we are in the food chain, but I have no doubt he'll be a £10M+ player in a couple of years.

btw, Everton also matched the £4.4M we got from you for Scott Brown. The choice was up to him.

On Scott Allan, I can't believe Hibs don't want him back? Is it not more likely we just want to keep the deals separate? Because, let's face it, you're going to be offloading him for nothing in a few weeks anyway?
Edited by JeMeSouviens, 5 Jul 2018, 12:38 PM.
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Wailer
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Kouassi for the off then ?
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The Green Lantern
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Edit: double post.
Edited by The Green Lantern, 5 Jul 2018, 12:42 PM.
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The Green Lantern
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JeMeSouviens
5 Jul 2018, 12:36 PM
Since I've been watching him for years ... I think he'll be a star if he goes to Celtic and you'll all love him. Great long passer, carries the ball extremely well, very strong ball winner and very hard to dispossess (he's worked really hard on upper body strength and it shows). His downsides are he has bad days when his high tempo short passing rythym goes a bit and that he doesn't score enough goals considering the positions he gets into. He's got a brilliant attitude to the game and life in general though.

In terms of our midfield last season, he's not as good at McGeouch at controlling passing tempo and he doesn't play quite as many killer passes as Allan, but he is easily the most complete player we had. With better players around him, he'll look even better.

Obviously Hibs can't command big fees because of where we are in the food chain, but I have no doubt he'll be a £10M+ player in a couple of years.

btw, Everton also matched the £4.4M we got from you for Scott Brown. The choice was up to him.

On Scott Allan, I can't believe Hibs don't want him back? Is it not more likely we just want to keep the deals separate? Because, let's face it, you're going to be offloading him for nothing in a few weeks anyway?
Would he be more likely to be cover for Brown than a replacement for Armstrong in that case?
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