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The state of Scottish football
Topic Started: 26 Jun 2018, 10:28 AM (9,102 Views)
Neil Jung
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Off treasure hunting in Holland
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Hasn't pro youth switched to summer fitba?
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oneillsrevolution
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but in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.
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We're definitely improving but still a long way to becoming a credible force again. Scottish football has been in an inexorable decline since the 1970s. Dramatically so after the late 1980s, when Scotland was arguably the centre of British football. The clubs didn't adapt to the post-Bosman landscape effectively, fetishing cheap foreign players over youth development. Not helped by incompetent governing bodies with their snouts in the trough and laughably amateurish negotiating skills. SKY has also been disastrous for Scottish football. We were made a noticeably secondary product from the 1990s onwards which had reputational consequences and became a self-fulfilling prophecy. Whilst shampooe games that make up the majority of the EPL season (eg. West Brom vs Reading) were covered in glitter and passed off as £1m products, Scottish football's biggest games were treated as anamolies in a pub league and subsequent deals have reflected that. Some investment would have rectified that (but would the clibs have invested wisely?). That said, there are very promising signs. The age of high paid foreign duds and living outwith their means is over (Sevco excepted). Most clusb have went back to youth development and have adopted Celtic's model of focus on youth development, creative scouting, develop players and move them on to reinvest in the team. Strangely, the largesse of the EPL presents opportunities. We now have a ready made market for elite players leaving Scotland. Also managerial candidates. There is a fetish for foreign coaches meaning the best British managers are not really considered for the top 5-6 clubs. The best English managers infest the Championship. We have some brilliant managers up here: Brendan Rodgers, Stevie Clark, Neil Lennon. Good managers like Stubbs, Robinson and Wright. Then there's average yet high profile managers like Levein, Mcinnes, McCann. Steven Gerrard is untested and imo unsuitable for the job, but at least he brings a bit of profile and hopefully helps us get a better TV deal from BT.

There are very promising shoots of recovery. But we need to make progress in Europe and internationally. Maintain the focus on youth development at club level, giving the youngsters a game. Those that are not good enough can be moved on for small profits. The best should be kept. The exceptional moved on for astronomical fees. Creative scouting and a healthy turnover of players with continual reinvestment in playing staff. Effectively paying for itself, the playing side should always be within the means of the club. Sack the SFA. Get McLeish to eff and hire an amibitious young coach. Qualify for a big tournament with clubs in Europe beyong Christmas.

Sounds easy.

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Scotty_Bhoy_7
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For me it's a cultural thing. Too many weans playing shampooe like Fortnite, not enough playing sports in general.

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puroresu_boy
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Scotty_Bhoy_7
29 Jun 2018, 11:47 AM
For me it's a cultural thing. Too many weans playing shampooe like Fortnite, not enough playing sports in general.

Not exclusive to Scotland.

Kids everywhere play video games
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williebhoy
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As ever in Scottish football at ALL levels, if the opposition have a good player then coaches / managers tell their players to kick them / hit em hard / let them know you are there etc etc.

Not try to read a pass to the quality players and intercept - crunch them, not try to learn and show you are better - get intae him.

It's ok though, they have their SFA coaching badges so all good..........................but who is coaching the coaches - the same guys who have been through the same garbage for decades.
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JohnRobertson
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williebhoy
29 Jun 2018, 12:17 PM
As ever in Scottish football at ALL levels, if the opposition have a good player then coaches / managers tell their players to kick them / hit em hard / let them know you are there etc etc.

Not try to read a pass to the quality players and intercept - crunch them, not try to learn and show you are better - get intae him.

It's ok though, they have their SFA coaching badges so all good..........................but who is coaching the coaches - the same guys who have been through the same garbage for decades.
Nonsense
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Stockholm87
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Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 04:16 PM
Stephane_Mahe
28 Jun 2018, 04:01 PM
Stockholm87
28 Jun 2018, 02:43 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Agreed. A kid being on the park doesn't mean they're involved. More touches on the ball is what's gonna make you a better player, not running around on a park you can't even kick the ball half the length of.
A lot of the primary pitches are pretty small.

There's clearly pros and cons to both.

You also need to consider the weather we have here. Nothing worse than weans standing around watching in the pissing rain or snow.



They way it works here for the 7 a side years is that the players all train together as one group but teams take about 10-11 players to each match. There is more than one team for each age group (can be 2-4 teams depending on how many players) .So no problem for everyone to get a game each week. Summer football (it's actually spring - late summer/autumn with a break in July) solves the snow problem.
Once they're older and it gets more serious (for some) then they season extends as long as possible (early december here) nad starts as early as possible (games in Feb believe it or not). This last part only works due to artificial pitches now.
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Kingslim
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Stockholm87
29 Jun 2018, 01:00 PM
Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 04:16 PM
Stephane_Mahe
28 Jun 2018, 04:01 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
A lot of the primary pitches are pretty small.

There's clearly pros and cons to both.

You also need to consider the weather we have here. Nothing worse than weans standing around watching in the pissing rain or snow.



They way it works here for the 7 a side years is that the players all train together as one group but teams take about 10-11 players to each match. There is more than one team for each age group (can be 2-4 teams depending on how many players) .So no problem for everyone to get a game each week. Summer football (it's actually spring - late summer/autumn with a break in July) solves the snow problem.
Once they're older and it gets more serious (for some) then they season extends as long as possible (early december here) nad starts as early as possible (games in Feb believe it or not). This last part only works due to artificial pitches now.
:thumbsup:
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Scotty_Bhoy_7
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puroresu_boy
29 Jun 2018, 12:14 PM
Scotty_Bhoy_7
29 Jun 2018, 11:47 AM
For me it's a cultural thing. Too many weans playing shampooe like Fortnite, not enough playing sports in general.

Not exclusive to Scotland.

Kids everywhere play video games
Ripping the heart out the community...

Posted Image
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ballbhoy
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Few random thoughts.

Depending on area there are some excellent coaches available. I'd disagree with those saying that kids are too young to coach. Good coaches can notice simple things at an early age that can assist a kid's development. For example simple things like "Left side - left foot. (Fundamental thing that Boyata should have done versus Rangers in the 3-2 game). There's nothing to stop kids enjoying themselves but it's important they also learn good basic skills. Do people also think it's wrong to teach kids to count or hold a knife and fork at a young age? Some kids are very talented at an early age and the key is to push them on - this requires coaching.

I'd say that coaching is now an industry in its own right regarding kids football. Sadly this means that someone needs to pay for it. At many clubs kids will be required to pay monthly subscriptions - and in some cases this is prohibitive. I seriously worry that this is excluding some real talent from emerging - particularly with reference to scouting - which I'll return to later.

Kids football. It'll start with fun 4s - lots of touches on a small park. Then it'll progress to 7 aside. For this there are retreating lines to allow defenders a touch in the defensive area before an attacker can advance. This encourages play from the back. I think it works well. The SFA have now introduced 9-aside to be the transition before 11-aside. If you have good coaches then it's easy for a team coached well to play bigger more aggressive opposition off the park who are not coached well. For that reason I disagree with those who say not to coach the kids from an early age. The key to Iceland's success is to have more A level coaches coaching younger kids earlier.

In my opinion the key for kids is to concentrate on their core skills in their own time. You are not going to get the same time on the ball when you're with 20 other kids as you are on your own. My lad pesters me non-stop when he's not playing organised football to take him out. Out we go with a set of nets and a load of balls. 90 minutes he'll do a heap of exercises. In the process of 2 years he's not far off from being truly two-footed. It's the same as any skill - the more you practice the better you get. The best young violinists will spend 5 hours a day practising.

Scouting. Again it's like the coaching - when is too early? Typically lads can't sign pro-youth until they are 11. However most clubs will have academies that are taking boys in from 9 on-wards. The academies hover up the best talent from boys clubs. Each club is only allowed to sign a certain number to play in a season - however they will often have a bigger pool of talent that they use to supplement the team. So for example at 7 aside they will sign 12 for the season but they may have 25 training with them. Thus they are keeping the other 12 on the scene in case there are late developers. I've seen numerous lads excel at 9 years old and then are discarded at 14 as boys mature and bodies develop. There is certainly a degree of who you know in terms of certain kids who are at academies. Plus how do scouts find that natural talent that can't afford the prices of organised coaching sessions.

My lad is involved in pro-youth. The training is very good - with the emphasis on technique. However I would say that there is a lack of aggression in the pro-youth ranks. I've seen this across many age groups. There's something that doesn't feel right. Perhaps this is the reason that when many kids leave the pro-youth they chuck the game. I've seen boys return from pro-youth to boys club and being swallowed up. The flip side is I've seen boys emerge late from boys club and excel in the pro-youth set up and go on to professional football. In the pro-youth there are possibly 3 players in a squad of twenty who stand out (some players will emerge later). My view is that the other 17 are supporting bringing these 3 through. I've seen some of the other 17 jump across Scotland to get their kid a game for 30 minutes here and there. They should be playing boys club and getting real game time and enjoy winning trophies with their peers instead of clinging to a dream. There is still a pathway for kids to come through boys club later in life.

Futsal. I'm a massive fan. Lots of touches in a small area so that emphasis is on skill and work ethic. If kids make a mistake this is quickly forgotten about whereas in real football they may only get one chance in a game. The SFA slowly seem to be recognising the role futsal may have - particularly in a country where outdoor football is unplayable from November to February. Futsal leagues are now fairly common during the winter. I think they are excellent.

Parents. Some absolute roasters out there. I've seen parents offer their kid a PS4 for scoring 10 goals in a game. I've also seen some good initiatives from kid's teams. Any coaching from parents on the side and your son is substituted. Parents should also be preparing their kids better. Some are too easily caught up in thinking their kid will become a professional footballer - when in actual fact the success rate is tiny. The parents have expectations of professional football beyond school that in all likelihood will never be fulfilled. They are damaging their kids emotionally in my opinion.

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Ciaran88
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There are some really brilliant ideas and many people on here who actually care/know what they are talking about. In all honesty it's probably the best debate on the forum at present.

In attempting to summarise the scenario, would it be fair to say that the starting point is within the SFA itself? Most agree they are failing our kids miserably. Coaching is the first issue they need to address - getting good people in, not just at managing but those who can command respect from the kids through their knowledge and how they treat youngsters.


In my experience, kids respond well to these type of people - it's obvious some of you already have these traits - and they also tend to be incredibly loyal, attend training, listen, learn and want to train, as well as play. These type of coaches make 'subs' feel like a vital part of the whole squad from an early age.


My worry, of course, is that there are not enough people with these qualities.


Brendan is a great example of a man who earns respect through hard work and man management, it is part of his nature and, again, many people don't possess these qualities.


I think my main concern is that we are trying to reach for the stars - nothing wrong with that - but it really isn't going to happen until we have a complete and total change of mindset from the SFA and coaches throughout Scotland.

I think we should expect to fail and fail again BUT never give up until we get closer and closer to success. It can never be 100% attained.

Some on this thread could make a difference, definitely.



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JohnRobertson
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Ciaran88
30 Jun 2018, 08:48 AM
There are some really brilliant ideas and many people on here who actually care/know what they are talking about. In all honesty it's probably the best debate on the forum at present.

In attempting to summarise the scenario, would it be fair to say that the starting point is within the SFA itself? Most agree they are failing our kids miserably. Coaching is the first issue they need to address - getting good people in, not just at managing but those who can command respect from the kids through their knowledge and how they treat youngsters.


In my experience, kids respond well to these type of people - it's obvious some of you already have these traits - and they also tend to be incredibly loyal, attend training, listen, learn and want to train, as well as play. These type of coaches make 'subs' feel like a vital part of the whole squad from an early age.


My worry, of course, is that there are not enough people with these qualities.


Brendan is a great example of a man who earns respect through hard work and man management, it is part of his nature and, again, many people don't possess these qualities.


I think my main concern is that we are trying to reach for the stars - nothing wrong with that - but it really isn't going to happen until we have a complete and total change of mindset from the SFA and coaches throughout Scotland.

I think we should expect to fail and fail again BUT never give up until we get closer and closer to success. It can never be 100% attained.

Some on this thread could make a difference, definitely.



That's a great post.

I love coaching the kids, it's about giving them an opportunity to have coaching sessions and play football in a safe environment.

We pride ourselves on never having charged the kids one penny to be involved in the school football team in all the years I've been involved, we want the kids to be there because they are good enough and that they want to play for the school, not be there because they can afford it. We have kids who we have had to buy shinguard's, boots and goalkeepers gloves for as their families can't afford those essential items, we get by on fundraising and this year, the school themselves have been very supportive, this means we will be able to buy the kids training kit as many of them are relying on the generosity of parents who have had older kids in the team handing in strips and training gear that their kids have out grown.

There is a lot that is wrong in my opinion with the SFA and their dogma over 7 a side football only for primary school aged kids. They sold it as a vision of creating wonderful players, that was never going to happen. For 99.9% of those who kick a ball it will be a participation sport and not a profession, so let kids participate. Are their more kids playing organised football now than there were 20 years ago when 7 a side was promoted as the only way forward, defiantly not, in schools alone there are around a tenth of the numbers of schools playing football and youth teams have declined in number too, that means that there are 1,000's of less kids playing football now than there were 20 years ago.

Seven a side is fine but not the only way, we have families that can't afford basic items and without us being able to get them wouldn't be able to play, if you add in the fees there are to be in a 7 a side team, that makes football unaffordable for a huge number of families, especially when we acknowledge the savage cuts in the welfare system and families having to use foodbanks. I was taking to a colleague a couple of weeks ago, she was telling me that they pay forty pounds a month to their child's team and there are around 20 kids in that 7 a side team, that's a lot of money. For me it is a case of let the kids play football, I think it's brilliant that so many people give their time up to do it, take their coaching badges, usually at their own expense and go through their PVG check all before they can take one session. I don't care whether kids play 1v1, 2v2, 4 a side, 7 a side, 9 a side, 11 a side, as long as they play football that the important part.

We've had a number of kids go through pro youth and as people have said the numbers that they can sign are restricted, the problem is though that they take players in to 'train' with them and while they are in that set up they can't play for anyone else as although they aren't officially told that they are told that if they did and got injured it could hamper their chances in the future. I've watched kids get signed or go to teams at 10 yrs of age, be released at 14 and never kick a ball again as they're not going to make it as a professional. I've also seen one club hold the registration of a 14 yr old for almost 2 years as although they weren't going to play them, unless a club came up with a fee of several thousand pounds they weren't going to let him go, that kid was out of football for almost 2 years!!

I've been doing this for almost 20 years, in that time the mantra from the SFA has been initially to follow the Dutch model, then when they weren't successful and France were it was to follow their model, then it was back to the Dutch as they had a good team again and France got knocked out in the group stages, then it was Spain they wanted to follow as they won the Euro's twice and the World Cup. There is no plan from the top, they came up with an idea, it's not working and rather than say they made a mistake they are sticking to a failing model, just lets get kids back to playing affordable football whether it's 11 a side, 9 a side, 7 a side as nothing is perfect

I'm pretty new to the site after lurking for a long time so sorry for the rant
Edited by JohnRobertson, 30 Jun 2018, 02:24 PM.
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drks
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Scotland really isn't THAT cold a country despite what we like to pretend. No need for summer football at the senior level. We only get snow maybe twice a year at worst.

At youth level, sure. Winters are dark as eff.
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IainG
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Ah but I was so much older then,I'm younger than that now
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drks
30 Jun 2018, 05:26 PM
Scotland really isn't THAT cold a country despite what we like to pretend. No need for summer football at the senior level. We only get snow maybe twice a year at worst.

At youth level, sure. Winters are dark as eff.
True but the state of some of the pitches in Winter is deplorable and sub standard artificial pitches make it worse.
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corsica1968
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I don’t know what the answer is, but I can certainly tell you what the problem is in one acronym:

SFA.

This is an organisation which commissioned Henry bunga bunga McLeish to conduct an anodyne review which it then viewed as overly radical. An organisation presided over by the likes of Ogilvie, Regan, Gordon Smith, Dickson, Petrie, etc.

Put the lot of them up against a wall. Be done with it and move on.

Hasta la revolucion
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IainG
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Ah but I was so much older then,I'm younger than that now
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A disfunctional organisation if ever there was. I suspect they are the root of the problem. Whatever the answers are to improving our football the present incumbents and set up are no use.
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Stockholm87
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drks
30 Jun 2018, 05:26 PM
Scotland really isn't THAT cold a country despite what we like to pretend. No need for summer football at the senior level. We only get snow maybe twice a year at worst.

At youth level, sure. Winters are dark as eff.
It isn't just about snow. Paradoxically below 0 kan be better than a few degrees above 0 since the air is often drier.
Playing in wind and rain is much worse and is maybe not the best way to encourage young players to keep playing and develop skills.

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DKB
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Found an old article about the call up to the Elite Round of the UEFA European Under-17 Championships back in 2011

None of the 7 players we had in the squad made it with us
-Feruz still on contract with Chelsea until next summer, where ????? awaits him
-Chalmers is at Inverness
-Fraser at Ross County
-Herron at Raith
-Kidd at Falkirk
- Mo Yaqub has quit football
- James Wightman has quit football

Not a single player have made it into a first team regular at a English Premier League side, not even a English Championship side as I can see - a few is playing in the SPL, but not as big profiles

I know that it is limited how many players that makes the step from youth football to pro, but that is just appealing IMO

https://spfl.co.uk/news/article/mathie-names-under-17-squad/
Edited by DKB, 2 Jul 2018, 12:02 PM.
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pieol
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Does the SFA have to be the main player in change? It appears they are a large part of the problem. Could local, non-affiliated initiatives not work?
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Wailer
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Scotty_Bhoy_7
29 Jun 2018, 11:47 AM
For me it's a cultural thing. Too many weans playing shampooe like Fortnite, not enough playing sports in general.

Plenty of kids want to play football. Plenty being priced out of it and the lack of facilities doesn't help either. Plenty of great wee clubs about, Rossvale and West Park to name 2 local clubs that are brilliantly run. Rossvale had decent facilities too (other than the dressing rooms) but no idea now as there's been a lot happening where they trained.
Edited by Wailer, 2 Jul 2018, 01:20 PM.
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