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The state of Scottish football
Topic Started: 26 Jun 2018, 10:28 AM (9,103 Views)
drks
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We've regressed so much even from the 90s. Can't imagine a Scottish team doing as well as we did at Euro 96 in the near future. And that was (rightly) considered a poor era at the time!
Edited by drks, 28 Jun 2018, 04:19 PM.
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Mickeybhoy84
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Living the dream
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Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 04:16 PM
Stephane_Mahe
28 Jun 2018, 04:01 PM
Stockholm87
28 Jun 2018, 02:43 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Agreed. A kid being on the park doesn't mean they're involved. More touches on the ball is what's gonna make you a better player, not running around on a park you can't even kick the ball half the length of.
A lot of the primary pitches are pretty small.

There's clearly pros and cons to both.

You also need to consider the weather we have here. Nothing worse than weans standing around watching in the pissing rain or snow.



My son plays 5s on a full size pitch that’s been divided into 8 smaller pitches. That means there’s 80 kids on a pitch designed for 22 adult players. The games often end up as scrappy affairs as it’s usually quite congested.
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Tothecore
First team training
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Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 04:16 PM
Stephane_Mahe
28 Jun 2018, 04:01 PM
Stockholm87
28 Jun 2018, 02:43 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Agreed. A kid being on the park doesn't mean they're involved. More touches on the ball is what's gonna make you a better player, not running around on a park you can't even kick the ball half the length of.
A lot of the primary pitches are pretty small.

There's clearly pros and cons to both.

You also need to consider the weather we have here. Nothing worse than weans standing around watching in the pissing rain or snow.



Why have eighteen or twenty kids signed on for eleven places ? With those numbers there will be four or five that will never really be involved, Unless your expecting European football after Christmas.
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donkeyradish
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Getting on a bit
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Since the era when Scotland regularly qualified for the World Cup there have been around 20 new footballing nations created in Europe.
Of which at least half are as good as or better than Scotland.

This is the #1 contributing factor to our demise in stature.
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Stephane_Mahe
Getting on a bit
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Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 04:16 PM
Stephane_Mahe
28 Jun 2018, 04:01 PM
Stockholm87
28 Jun 2018, 02:43 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Agreed. A kid being on the park doesn't mean they're involved. More touches on the ball is what's gonna make you a better player, not running around on a park you can't even kick the ball half the length of.
A lot of the primary pitches are pretty small.

There's clearly pros and cons to both.

You also need to consider the weather we have here. Nothing worse than weans standing around watching in the pissing rain or snow.



Are there any big successful countries that have really young weans playing 11s? Brazil and the Futsal is the most obvious example of the opposite.

If you have enough players for 11s you have basically have enough for two 7 a side teams. Find another team who has the same and play two games of 7s rather than one games of 11s. Fair enough if you can't do that, but that's a logistical problem rather than a 'what's best for development problem'.

I think almost all the big associations in world football are in agreement that smaller games that result in more touches and "involvements" per player are much better than playing 11s in terms of development for weans of primary school age. Or certainly for early primary school age. FIFA definitely recommend this, although that might just be because there is somehow more money it for them.

Either way, fair play for all the work you're doing with your team.
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Kingslim
69 and counting
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Tothecore
28 Jun 2018, 04:33 PM
Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 04:16 PM
Stephane_Mahe
28 Jun 2018, 04:01 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
A lot of the primary pitches are pretty small.

There's clearly pros and cons to both.

You also need to consider the weather we have here. Nothing worse than weans standing around watching in the pissing rain or snow.



Why have eighteen or twenty kids signed on for eleven places ? With those numbers there will be four or five that will never really be involved, Unless your expecting European football after Christmas.
I wasn’t there at the start. Think there was about 25 - split into 3 groups which were rotated. 2 groups would be used for games
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JohnRobertson
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Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 04:56 PM
Tothecore
28 Jun 2018, 04:33 PM
Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 04:16 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Why have eighteen or twenty kids signed on for eleven places ? With those numbers there will be four or five that will never really be involved, Unless your expecting European football after Christmas.
I wasn’t there at the start. Think there was about 25 - split into 3 groups which were rotated. 2 groups would be used for games
We have 18 kids in our group and most schools tend to be the same, you take 16 per game with roll on roll off subs so most kids play good game time, plus they're representing their school with all the positives that come with that.

Until 1998 we played 11 a side football at all ages, then the directive came from the SFA that 7 a side only was the way forward as this would produce top players for domestic and national teams and that both domestic and our national teams would be would not just be be qualifying for major tournaments but would be competitive too, it's not happened and doesn't look like it will happen. It's not having a go at 7's or saying 11's is the only way or vice versa, but I think as long as kids are playing football and they are being coached well (and I've seen good and poor coaching at both) then that is the important part.
Edited by JohnRobertson, 28 Jun 2018, 05:18 PM.
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Kingslim
69 and counting
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Stephane_Mahe
28 Jun 2018, 04:56 PM
Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 04:16 PM
Stephane_Mahe
28 Jun 2018, 04:01 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
A lot of the primary pitches are pretty small.

There's clearly pros and cons to both.

You also need to consider the weather we have here. Nothing worse than weans standing around watching in the pissing rain or snow.



Are there any big successful countries that have really young weans playing 11s? Brazil and the Futsal is the most obvious example of the opposite.

If you have enough players for 11s you have basically have enough for two 7 a side teams. Find another team who has the same and play two games of 7s rather than one games of 11s. Fair enough if you can't do that, but that's a logistical problem rather than a 'what's best for development problem'.

I think almost all the big associations in world football are in agreement that smaller games that result in more touches and "involvements" per player are much better than playing 11s in terms of development for weans of primary school age. Or certainly for early primary school age. FIFA definitely recommend this, although that might just be because there is somehow more money it for them.

Either way, fair play for all the work you're doing with your team.
Smaller sided games are obviously better for development.

Don’t have any choice with that league. It’s 11 a side across the board.

:thumbsup:
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JohnRobertson
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Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 05:16 PM
Stephane_Mahe
28 Jun 2018, 04:56 PM
Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 04:16 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Are there any big successful countries that have really young weans playing 11s? Brazil and the Futsal is the most obvious example of the opposite.

If you have enough players for 11s you have basically have enough for two 7 a side teams. Find another team who has the same and play two games of 7s rather than one games of 11s. Fair enough if you can't do that, but that's a logistical problem rather than a 'what's best for development problem'.

I think almost all the big associations in world football are in agreement that smaller games that result in more touches and "involvements" per player are much better than playing 11s in terms of development for weans of primary school age. Or certainly for early primary school age. FIFA definitely recommend this, although that might just be because there is somehow more money it for them.

Either way, fair play for all the work you're doing with your team.
Smaller sided games are obviously better for development.

Don’t have any choice with that league. It’s 11 a side across the board.

:thumbsup:
Yeah but if you don't want to play 11 a side there are plenty of teams and leagues that do, unfortunately if you do there is only one league that offers 11 a side, choice has been largely taken away and I think that's what kids should have.
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Kingslim
69 and counting
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JohnRobertson
28 Jun 2018, 05:12 PM
Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 04:56 PM
Tothecore
28 Jun 2018, 04:33 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I wasn’t there at the start. Think there was about 25 - split into 3 groups which were rotated. 2 groups would be used for games
We have 18 kids in our group and most schools tend to be the same, you take 16 per game with roll on roll off subs so most kids play good game time, plus they're representing their school with all the positives that come with that.

Until 1998 we played 11 a side football at all ages, then the directive came from the SFA that 7 a side only was the way forward as this would produce top players for domestic and national teams and that both domestic and our national teams would be would not just be be qualifying for major tournaments but would be competitive too, it's not happened and doesn't look like it will happen. It's not having a go at 7's or saying 11's is the only way but I think as long as kids are playing football and they are being coached well (and I've seen good and poor coaching at both) then that is the important part.
The SFA are full of shampoo.

My BIL was a football development officer and coached Pro-Youth with Hamilton. He even said it needs totally restructured and until they shift the old guard who have been hanging around for years not much will change.

He’s got his A licence and had to go to refresh it after 6 years or something and he said it was the same guys, delivering the same stuff and nothing had evolved.

They’ve tried various things at grass root level but there’s so many issues that have been highlighted on the thread that unless we are to get proper government investment then it will be difficult to change.

There’s not much point building facilities, only to price kids out of using them.

Celtic have probably done more for grass roots through the foundation and allowing kids u13 to have ST’s for 50 quid than the Scottish government have done in my lifetime.
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Kingslim
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JohnRobertson
28 Jun 2018, 05:22 PM
Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 05:16 PM
Stephane_Mahe
28 Jun 2018, 04:56 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Smaller sided games are obviously better for development.

Don’t have any choice with that league. It’s 11 a side across the board.

:thumbsup:
Yeah but if you don't want to play 11 a side there are plenty of teams and leagues that do, unfortunately if you do there is only one league that offers 11 a side, choice has been largely taken away and I think that's what kids should have.
This is only school primary teams I’m talking about. We don’t have a choice about changing the setup unfortunately.

Any clubs I’ve been involved with follow the path you suggest. Start them at fun4’s, then 5’s, 7’s and 11’s.

What has been refreshing is having more girls involved. We had 2 in our team and there were other schools who’ve had girls in their team too.
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Tothecore
First team training
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Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 04:56 PM
Tothecore
28 Jun 2018, 04:33 PM
Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 04:16 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Why have eighteen or twenty kids signed on for eleven places ? With those numbers there will be four or five that will never really be involved, Unless your expecting European football after Christmas.
I wasn’t there at the start. Think there was about 25 - split into 3 groups which were rotated. 2 groups would be used for games
To be fair that's a pretty good system if you have a lot of lads signed on. As others have said I'm full of admiration for those that give up their time so that youngsters get into the game :thumbsup:
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JohnRobertson
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Getting noticed in the reserves
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Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 05:25 PM
JohnRobertson
28 Jun 2018, 05:22 PM
Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 05:16 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Yeah but if you don't want to play 11 a side there are plenty of teams and leagues that do, unfortunately if you do there is only one league that offers 11 a side, choice has been largely taken away and I think that's what kids should have.
This is only school primary teams I’m talking about. We don’t have a choice about changing the setup unfortunately.

Any clubs I’ve been involved with follow the path you suggest. Start them at fun4’s, then 5’s, 7’s and 11’s.

What has been refreshing is having more girls involved. We had 2 in our team and there were other schools who’ve had girls in their team too.
Absolutely, when I started coaching almost 20 yrs ago there were very few opportunities for girls, now in schools football there are quite a few, including the one I coach.

My daughter played in school football as did my son, my daughter went on to play at the highest level in woman's league football, I've coached Woman's football in all the domestic leagues in Scotland and it's fantastic the way it's developed
Edited by JohnRobertson, 28 Jun 2018, 08:11 PM.
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Shuggie Edvaldsson
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puroresu_boy
26 Jun 2018, 12:19 PM
There are other examples such as Japan.

Japan never entered a world cup prior to 1998. Since then they have qualified for 5 more getting out of the group twice.

They have a league which is probably a higher standard than what we see in Scotland and a national side far better than Scotland.

How can it be that a nation such as Japan can move so much quicker and surpass Scotland when historically Japan was a minor footballing nation.
They also beat S Africa in the last rugby World Cup.

My guess is a combination of discipline, well-qualified coaches, good facilities and a population of around 125m.
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lindengreen
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FergusMcGrain
26 Jun 2018, 02:17 PM
Late 60's, 70's and early 80's, Scotland produced many top class and some World class players. The national team still produced very little. If we had not taken producing players for granted back then and had been forward thinking we could have laid the foundations to make this a great wee footballing Country.

Thatcher, squeezed the life out of Council funding and sold off many areas where kids played football. Teachers who happily ran School football teams were put under more pressure time wise and many chucked it. Kids stopped playing in the street mainly because everybody had cars and it was no longer safe.


The biggest culprit is our National body, the SFA. No plan, no vision no foresight.


I count mysely very lucky to have grown up in the 60's and 70's where you could play football from dawn to dusk and go to Celtic Park and see footballers of the highest calibre, week in week out.


I have no idea what is happening at grass roots level these days and if there is more hope for the future.

:thumbsup:
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Kingslim
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JohnRobertson
28 Jun 2018, 08:11 PM
Kingslim
28 Jun 2018, 05:25 PM
JohnRobertson
28 Jun 2018, 05:22 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
This is only school primary teams I’m talking about. We don’t have a choice about changing the setup unfortunately.

Any clubs I’ve been involved with follow the path you suggest. Start them at fun4’s, then 5’s, 7’s and 11’s.

What has been refreshing is having more girls involved. We had 2 in our team and there were other schools who’ve had girls in their team too.
Absolutely, when I started coaching almost 20 yrs ago there were very few opportunities for girls, now in schools football there are quite a few, including the one I coach.

My daughter played in school football as did my son, my daughter went on to play at the highest level in woman's league football, I've coached Woman's football in all the domestic leagues in Scotland and it's fantastic the way it's developed
Fair play to you :thumbsup:
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Neil Jung
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Couple of points really. The problem in Scotland is the culture of refereeing. No this isn't a bias thing, this is a not applying the laws the same way as the rest of the world thing. We still produce good young players. We still produce good young teams who can overachieve at youth level. It is when these players hit a certain age they find it hard to make the transition from being a boy to being a young man. For a long time we've put it down to players discovering birds and booze. While this does explain the chaff falling away the majority of those players wouldn't have made it anyway. Our problem is when the talented players with the correct attitude to make it as a pro then get bled into the first team they are faced with hammer throwers like Keith Lasley. Guys who add nothing to the game here but are lauded as honest pros. While I accept it is a "mans game" we need to do more to protect our talented players or else the majority of players we'll get coming through are hard working guys who can get stuck in. The problem there is we come up against countries who have hard working guys that can get stuck in but also play football and are several inches taller than us.

My next point is on summer football. I am incredulous that any Celtic fan would argue for it. If it ever came about you'd be killing the club as you know it. You think Scotland is a backwater just now and Celtic struggle in Europe? If you got your way the vast majority of the best Scottish talent would be playing in England, at all levels, and the only foreigners playing here would be the third rate type with the odd missed gem who turn up and play for one season before hotfooting it to a real league. I for one am not willing to critically hurt the club I follow on the off chance that Scotland might improve and make a tournament once and again.
Edited by Neil Jung, 29 Jun 2018, 03:22 AM.
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Forza
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donkeyradish
28 Jun 2018, 04:40 PM
Since the era when Scotland regularly qualified for the World Cup there have been around 20 new footballing nations created in Europe.
Of which at least half are as good as or better than Scotland.

This is the #1 contributing factor to our demise in stature.
Often overlooked but definitely a contributory factor, at least as far as World Cup qualification is concerned. Euro qualification should be easier due to it now being a 24 team tournament.

Has not stopped Denmark and Sweden continuing to have an amount of qualification success though.

Standards are still nowhere near high enough though.
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Paul Allen
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donkeyradish
28 Jun 2018, 04:40 PM
Since the era when Scotland regularly qualified for the World Cup there have been around 20 new footballing nations created in Europe.
Of which at least half are as good as or better than Scotland.

This is the #1 contributing factor to our demise in stature.
Perhaps, but it's like a business complaining that more competitors have entered their industry, meaning the continual need to adapt or die.

A number of other nations have adapted to the changing landscape, Scotland hasn't. The creation of new nations is not something we can control but the things we can control have been criminally neglected - I would consider this a bigger contributing factor.
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duffsticks
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Summer football would be great at youth level. I don't necessarily see the need for it at senior level - provided clubs can keep their pitches in decent nick - but as someone previously mentioned, there's nothing worse than seeing kids clearly not enjoying themselves stuck out in the pishing rain or driving wind in the middle of winter.

Football could get away with that in the 60s and 70s when that was literally all there was to do. Now kids have a multitude of activities they can enjoy without risking exposure on a football pitch in the middle of winter.

Either build genuinely great and accessible facilities for kids to train and play in over the winter, or switch school-age football to the summer.
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