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The state of Scottish football
Topic Started: 26 Jun 2018, 10:28 AM (9,105 Views)
Hairytoes
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First-team captain
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What players do we have now, capable of playing international football - under 25?

I'm thinking there must be a few, who given their place would begin to improve.
I mean playing Jack Hendry at CB, rather than Russell Martin for example.

Play a couple of players older, if they are by far better & would help bring the younger ones on.

We could probably play our best team according to this, without losing anyone who shouldn't be dropped.

KT becoming Captain would be a good move & build a team in his image (as much as we can).
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Stockholm87
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We've had posts ridiculing summer football and plastic pitches and we've had posts wondering how we can compete with Iceland. 🤔
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Lobey Dosser
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Paul Allen
26 Jun 2018, 04:37 PM
Lobey Dosser
26 Jun 2018, 04:32 PM
Luca
26 Jun 2018, 04:27 PM
We’re a nation which prides itself on how pished we get and how bad our diet is. Kids grow up thinking it’s better and more acceptable to get pished than it is to dedicate themselves to training and self improvement. To add to that we have a governing body that is beyond embarrassing and out of touch. It’s no surprise we produce almost no world class talent.
Harsh, but in the main true.
When is it just 'true'? None of that seems all that harsh to me. Particularly the SFA, they're a joke and aren't fit for purpose.

I'd say that " kids grow up thinking it's better , and more acceptable to get pished than it is to dedicate themselves to training and self improvement " is a generalisation which is not entirely true of all kids.

I don't have any issues with the poster's views on the governing body , my previous posts on the SFA have called them out time and again for a bunch of talentless, self serving
jobsworths who are entirely intent on maintaining the status quo in Scottish football, which in turn maintains their postitons.

Corrupt and risible.
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Larry's left drumstick
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Until we can modernise our coaching and get away from the ''he's too wee to be a player'' brigade and stop teaching this blootering the ball up the pitch and everyone chases it shampooe, we will never compete internationally.
It's a dirty sport here too, I hate watching our players getting kicked to pieces every week, and the 'refs' doing nothing to stop it.
Fitba has evolved, we as a nation refuse to do so.










(edited, typo)
Edited by Larry's left drumstick, 26 Jun 2018, 05:54 PM.
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Kingslim
69 and counting
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Larry's left drumstick
26 Jun 2018, 05:50 PM
Until we can modernise our coaching and get away from the ''he's too wee to be a player'' brigade and stop teaching this blootering the ball up the pitch and everyone chases it shampooe, we will never compete internationally.
It's a dirty sport here too, I hate watching our players getting kicked to pieces every week, and the 'refs' doing nothing to stop it.
Fitba has evolved, we as a nation refuse to do so.










(edited, typo)
I coached 9, 10 and 11 year olds and had them passing and moving.

I went to watch the older team last Friday night who are largely made up of 12 year olds. Their goalkeeper was a big lad and the tactics consisted of the goalie booting the ball into the opposing penalty area.

They had some right good players in their team, but when you’ve got dinosaurs in charge that’s what you’re up against.

When I started to assist another dinosaur who was coaching our team. He was another punt it type. I started making them throw the ball out to the full backs and he was nearly having a heart attack. He ended up getting phased out and the older team came along and watched our team. I think they were shocked that kids so young were passing the ball and moving and played with a good shape to the team.

You can still win trying to play football, it may not always work but it’s better than the “punt it, punt it” brigade.
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Larry's left drumstick
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Kingslim
26 Jun 2018, 06:21 PM
Larry's left drumstick
26 Jun 2018, 05:50 PM
Until we can modernise our coaching and get away from the ''he's too wee to be a player'' brigade and stop teaching this blootering the ball up the pitch and everyone chases it shampooe, we will never compete internationally.
It's a dirty sport here too, I hate watching our players getting kicked to pieces every week, and the 'refs' doing nothing to stop it.
Fitba has evolved, we as a nation refuse to do so.










(edited, typo)
I coached 9, 10 and 11 year olds and had them passing and moving.

I went to watch the older team last Friday night who are largely made up of 12 year olds. Their goalkeeper was a big lad and the tactics consisted of the goalie booting the ball into the opposing penalty area.

They had some right good players in their team, but when you’ve got dinosaurs in charge that’s what you’re up against.

When I started to assist another dinosaur who was coaching our team. He was another punt it type. I started making them throw the ball out to the full backs and he was nearly having a heart attack. He ended up getting phased out and the older team came along and watched our team. I think they were shocked that kids so young were passing the ball and moving and played with a good shape to the team.

You can still win trying to play football, it may not always work but it’s better than the “punt it, punt it” brigade.
Good to know KS. More folk like you at the grass roots, and maybe the next generation will be a bit more fruitful :thumbsup:
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Speedy Gonzales
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We have an SFA affiliated set-up here in the Borders which is nothing short of disgraceful.

A 'Development Officer' who has done absolutely nothing to develop the game here at all. In fact, my sons team has had to pack it in along with 5 other small local clubs who had boys born in 2006.

As it's affiliated to the SFA we were required to field 11 players and play on a full-size park. But, because we live in very small communities 5 of the league clubs could not come up with the required numbers.

The result? Disbanding of our sons side along with the sides of the 5 others clubs too. Nothing from the SFA to allow playing with 7, 8 or 9 which we could all manage.

Surely the SFA could allow a set-up to suit? Surely a Development Officer's job is for all the kids to be able to participate?

Our alternative now is to drive our sons 22 miles to one of the bigger clubs on a Tuesday and Thursday (at 5.30) then play in an Edinburgh based league on a Sunday!! A round trip of over 100 miles!!

The game will lose 50-odd kids from down here as a direct result.

The SFA needs a root and branch clear out for us to move forward as a footballing nation. We've not qualified for a tourney since '96. What will it take for these arseholes to step aside and let someone else take over??

No wonder that here in the Borders the last person to make in football, some 30 years ago, was John Collins from Galashiels. It doesn't look like that will change any time soon either.

SFA. Not fit for purpose.
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MON's Left Eyebrow
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Coaching at grassroots and investment in that level will pay dividends in 15 years. Look at Iceland and their ridiculous success for confirmation of that.
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samscafeamericain
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when was the last time you saw an impromptu 18 a side game getting played by kids in the local park, no coaches, no adult organisation, just the weans picking teams and playing? In fact, lets make it easier, when was the last time you saw a 5 a side impromptu game?

Football is now something kids do as an after school/saturday morning event, which they attend in full FIFA approved professional kit.
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Jinkyfan67
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Kingslim
26 Jun 2018, 06:21 PM
Larry's left drumstick
26 Jun 2018, 05:50 PM
Until we can modernise our coaching and get away from the ''he's too wee to be a player'' brigade and stop teaching this blootering the ball up the pitch and everyone chases it shampooe, we will never compete internationally.
It's a dirty sport here too, I hate watching our players getting kicked to pieces every week, and the 'refs' doing nothing to stop it.
Fitba has evolved, we as a nation refuse to do so.










(edited, typo)
I coached 9, 10 and 11 year olds and had them passing and moving.

I went to watch the older team last Friday night who are largely made up of 12 year olds. Their goalkeeper was a big lad and the tactics consisted of the goalie booting the ball into the opposing penalty area.

They had some right good players in their team, but when you’ve got dinosaurs in charge that’s what you’re up against.

When I started to assist another dinosaur who was coaching our team. He was another punt it type. I started making them throw the ball out to the full backs and he was nearly having a heart attack. He ended up getting phased out and the older team came along and watched our team. I think they were shocked that kids so young were passing the ball and moving and played with a good shape to the team.

You can still win trying to play football, it may not always work but it’s better than the “punt it, punt it” brigade.
You don't say if these " dinosaurs"are independent coaches or just guys who give up their spare time to help out with their sons' football teams or their communities football clubs.
IMO it is shameful to slag off guys who are in the latter category.
The problem here in Scotland is that we have many thousands of guys who played at a decent level and who benefitted from many many volunteers who ran football clubs for kids and gave these ex players the opportunity to develop into good footballers .
I did ten years coaching even though my own boys weren't involved and having played the game for a few decades and having met and got to know hundreds of good footballers over that period of time it pains me to say that I know of only a dozen or so that "paid back their dues"
Don't slag off sub standard coaches that never had it in them in the first place rather criticise the thousands of capable guys who took years of great enjoyment from the game and gave NOTHING back!
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Stephane_Mahe
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Stockholm87
26 Jun 2018, 05:39 PM
We've had posts ridiculing summer football and plastic pitches and we've had posts wondering how we can compete with Iceland. 🤔
If you were to list all the things that have contributed to the success of the Iceland national team, how high up that list would “playing summer football” be?

How many of the Iceland national team play in the Icelandic league?

How are Icelandic clubs doing in Europe?
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smudgethecat
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My youth football consisted of black ash pitches at Royston?, people screaming 'OUT' at you after you blootered the ball up the park, and a paedophile coach, who I noticed was jailed last year. There were no tactics, other than defensive type ones and we were scottish champions at under 12 and 13. (Auchingill from Easterhouse)

We never once passed among our defence. We never worked on a single set piece. We were unbeaten for 18 months. A player went to Man Utd, a couple ended up professionals. Looking back it was a farce. A dangerous farce that wasted young talent through ignorance and lack of investment
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Kingslim
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Jinkyfan67
28 Jun 2018, 07:28 AM
Kingslim
26 Jun 2018, 06:21 PM
Larry's left drumstick
26 Jun 2018, 05:50 PM
Until we can modernise our coaching and get away from the ''he's too wee to be a player'' brigade and stop teaching this blootering the ball up the pitch and everyone chases it shampooe, we will never compete internationally.
It's a dirty sport here too, I hate watching our players getting kicked to pieces every week, and the 'refs' doing nothing to stop it.
Fitba has evolved, we as a nation refuse to do so.










(edited, typo)
I coached 9, 10 and 11 year olds and had them passing and moving.

I went to watch the older team last Friday night who are largely made up of 12 year olds. Their goalkeeper was a big lad and the tactics consisted of the goalie booting the ball into the opposing penalty area.

They had some right good players in their team, but when you’ve got dinosaurs in charge that’s what you’re up against.

When I started to assist another dinosaur who was coaching our team. He was another punt it type. I started making them throw the ball out to the full backs and he was nearly having a heart attack. He ended up getting phased out and the older team came along and watched our team. I think they were shocked that kids so young were passing the ball and moving and played with a good shape to the team.

You can still win trying to play football, it may not always work but it’s better than the “punt it, punt it” brigade.
You don't say if these " dinosaurs"are independent coaches or just guys who give up their spare time to help out with their sons' football teams or their communities football clubs.
IMO it is shameful to slag off guys who are in the latter category.
The problem here in Scotland is that we have many thousands of guys who played at a decent level and who benefitted from many many volunteers who ran football clubs for kids and gave these ex players the opportunity to develop into good footballers .
I did ten years coaching even though my own boys weren't involved and having played the game for a few decades and having met and got to know hundreds of good footballers over that period of time it pains me to say that I know of only a dozen or so that "paid back their dues"
Don't slag off sub standard coaches that never had it in them in the first place rather criticise the thousands of capable guys who took years of great enjoyment from the game and gave NOTHING back!
everybody at that level are giving up their time.

The dinosaur reference was about their attitude to the game. Anyone who gives up their time to coach kids are a saint -in my view.

I went along to watch my son. He's not supposed to play football as he's lost the use of his left arm. I allowed him to play with the school B team, as it's not as physical. Mainly made up of P4-P7, but they play 11 a side in the catholic schools league and they still play on blaze pitches quite a lot. We used an astro pitch which was a decent surface. The kids were totally disinterested as the guy just shouted at the kids and offered them no training. They get one hour a week training. This resulted in him shouting at them for about 20 mins before getting them to run for the majority of the time with a game for the last 15 or 20mins. We had a group of around 25 kids - which was far too many to begin with, and they were split into 3 groups and two of the groups made up the team for the Saturday. By the time we got to November some of the better players ended up moving on to club teams and others lost interest. I was asked to help out by other coaches and parents as I was always there supporting. I didn't take anything to do with the organising of games and was just informed if we were playing or not. There were plenty of weeks we ended up not having games and later I realised it's because the guy didn't go out his way to sort basic problems like finding alternative pitches etc. He told me that he knocked back an invitation to a tournament for the kids as he was worried they would get hammered - nonsense, he just couldn't be arsed. By the time we moved to after xmas he was taking a back seat and I was taking everything on board - even the organising. Those kids missed out on a helluva lot. I spent a lot of my time at work organising games right up until the end of the summer and even organised a team day out for the kids - that they never would have got if I hadn't taken it on board.

In terms of the training, I don't have coaching experience, I played football from Primary school right through until my first child was born when I was about 28. I changed the training, got down to their level and encouraged them individually and got them all on board. Made the training more fun. There were kids who were previously totally disinterested, were nearly in tears as the games had ended. I was gutted to leave as I was starting to turn them into a team and we had a good group who were all committed and wanting to do well. They went from getting hammered most weeks, to winning games and going 4 or 5 games undefeated and competing in every game we played.. They're not at an age where you can put in complicated drills but you can adapt and make them do things like their warm up with the ball instead of running and running and ultimately learning nothing or by playing games like "piggy in the middle" which is fun and good for passing under pressure. Passing on simple rules that you get taught from a young age, helping them organise their defence. Basic stuff like that goes a long way at this level. Mainly it's about the kids enjoying themselves, but it's totally detrimental when you have people who don't want kids to express themselves.

Then we had an end of season dance, he didn't want the kids getting POTY trophies or any other trophies, meanwhile the A team are dishing out trophies for allsorts. He hadn't been there for weeks and then stood up on the awards night and basically took the credit for what I'd been doing. I wasn't looking for any praise but he totally let them kids down and had the brass neck to stand there. he even admitted this was the first time they had finished the season with a full team - which tells it's own story.

So, whilst I commend anyone who gives up their time, when it's to the detriment of the children, then it's hardly worthwhile is it?

I had no intention of getting involved. I was there to support my son but if I hadn't we wouldn't have had a team.

He's going to secondary after summer. I'm gutted as I thoroughly enjoyed it and we were really going places. The kids all had the bug by the time the season ended - I felt heart sorry having to tell them I was leaving.

I applaud anyone who gets involved to help their local kids, but if you're going to do it make sure you're committed.

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Ciaran88
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Arsene Parcelie
26 Jun 2018, 04:32 PM
Joseph D. Pistone
26 Jun 2018, 02:48 PM
I help run my son's 2009's team. You can tell very easily which kids play football 3 hours a week and those who play any kind of football outwith organised training, and they are very few. It's without doubt an issue.

It seems kids are more concerned about becoming jugglers than team players

Don't see the issue with the point above. As a coach, you want kids to express themselves and try things they see Ronaldo, Messi, Rogic and Neymar (spit) doing. If they fail 9 times and succeed the 10th time then I'm all for it. The problem you have is parents shouting at kids for being greedy, not passing, causing goals and all this when games are supposed to be non-competitive and scores not recorded. Of course you also work on passing, decision making (my own son has a habit of trying turns in his own box and ending up looking Efe Ambrose) and hope they will start to learn when and where is appropriate to pass and when to try a bit of skill.

Cost is without a doubt a factor. We've 20 kids and not a single one from a poor or disadvantaged background.
What age is appropriate to start coaching kids? Is there any point in doing it before 7 years old? Encouragement and fun surely, before they have to suffer team disappointment, which they'll get once they discover the joys of supporting a club.

It's all very well doing the tricks of their heroes, but unless they can do it in a team situation it's pointless.
My point about them developing on their own by, e.g., going outside after tea with a ball, is that they try these things themselves without intervention, and they learn the basics by repetition and under no real pressure apart from peer oneupmanship. (Your point about failing) - in the end, they will develop their own style and should, if any good, be able to at least kick the ball in the right direction. Maybe the technique could be improved if shown how to, but that's just more homework.

Then, by the time they come to being involved in organised coaching, the basics are covered (self taught) and the importance of playing with the head up, and spatial awareness can be introduced. Passing and receiving a ball under pressure, and awareness when not, are more important than a couple of stepovers.
I don't know at what age proper tackling is introduced, so whatever age that may be is when the serious business begins - by that time a player should not have to think about controlling a ball.

Showboating is fine if there's end product, but if you want teamwork, you need passing and movement into appropriate spaces.
Oh aye, and today's players need to be athletes, ripped and dedicated to the lifestyle, so there's more hard work once they become of age to start that stuff.
All of this assumes that someone actually is trying to get to the pro ranks and not just doing it for the fun of kicking a ball around with their pals.

The true prospects will stand out once you reach this point, but the problem is most of those that aren't quite as developed at the same age seem to take any rejection hard and give up and go back to the Playstation instead of trying a couple more years. The alternatives to football are so varied that it's easier to find things that kids enjoy more if they are done with reaching for the stars.

With regard to children chucking sport after a setback; the Smartphone generation can open an app and start playing, become a virtual expert in a day, all without the hard work and time required to make it in a real sport.
It seems to me that kids today find it easier to sit on the couch or in the bedroom playing online sims than being outside getting out of breath and because of this a lot of sports are losing young participants.

I agree with a lot of what you say Arsene, especially in relation to having fun!

GAA clubs are supposed to encourage participation from a young age, integration into the sport and generally create a feelgood factor relating to the sport.

As with most things it is all fine and dandy in theory. The truth is much more telling. There are too many adults who don't know how to play a game on the basis of having fun and must win at all costs. The antics of managers and parents at GAA games can be totally embarrassing and the lack of professionalism at child levels are a national disgrace.

With GAA being, allegedly, an amature sport - like most kids football, I assume - it is the adults and family name that very often cause the problems. If we could somehow overcome the mindset of too many idiots running clubs week in week out we may have a chance to improve things (Please Note: There are many brilliant junior coaches out there too!).

Nepotism, favouritism and family feuds are rife in these situations. It really has to stop.

I'd like to see kids learn how to play the game as soon as they start training. There is no reason as to why tricks/skills cannot be built upon during sessions if it will bring benefit for the team. Make it fun but relevant!

Anyway, these are just a few observations I've made over the years. I'm not suggesting I am right, for a second.
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vlad
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"Alex Ferguson doesn't want the job after the World Cup, how about we give that Roxborough guy a go, good with kids apparently.
Him and his pal Brown would do as they're told and make sure shirts are tucked in, socks pulled up."

After that memo , we were effed.
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Gunner
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There's a whole raft of problems facing football in Scotland, from kids, through youth, amateur, into pro.

If we're looking at the pathway... costs, facilities, changing life patterns are the key problems.

We have very few facilities by comparison to the like of Iceland. a notable smaller nation with so many more all weather and indoor facilities. Then there[s the cost of what we currently have, which is outrageous.

Life is changing too - more people are moving from a mon-fri 9-5 job. It's more flexible now, more evening and weekend work. I personally think leagues needs to adapt.... have more flexibility in when games are played, etc to allow more to participate. Then as many have said before me on here - gone are the days of 'jumpers for goalposts'. Me and my mates (20 year ago now) - used to have a big grassy bit next to where we all lived. We'd have 11 a sides every other night. traffic cones for goals, and we'd play boys from all different schemes (that we knew through school). It was amazing. Half time was just when we needed a break and full time was when it got dark. Now, "kids" at 15 are dolled up, out in town. Too busy online, gaming etc.

For me... another massive problem is general interest from those not playing or with kids playing. There's a nation of armchair fans out there - but not enough willing to commit time to helping out here and there. (and not just financially). I've a mate who's been involved in football all his life, youth, amateur, junior as coach and manager. He's not with a team the now - so he helps out a local charity footy company by just driving their minibus for free... guys like him are rare. There is not enough people willing to just pitch in. People are too busy in their own lives.

And then, there is the coaching. Too many people have wonderful ideologies... how things should and shouldn't be done. There's merits for most types of training. Hard running, all ball, mix of both - whatever. I'm an advocate of it all, I think there's times for hard running, sprint sessions, long distance running etc... as much as there's merit to 100% ball work sessions. But, whatever your opinion on a 'good coaching session' - as soon as you lass a level 1 coaching course, you can implement whatever you think is right to a group of kids. The prerequisite for passing level 1.... is simply turning up. Level 2 and on there's at least some sort of practical assessment.
Edited by Gunner, 28 Jun 2018, 11:27 AM.
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Forza
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Would anyone like to wager that Iceland will return to obscurity and generally being utter mince fairly soon? Who will we be told to learn from next?

Scotland will always have limitations. No one is expecting us to recreate Brazil '70 in any generation, but I think ultimately we should be aiming a bit higher than being the international equivalent of Tony Pulis' Stoke.

How's about we build our own way based on what works for us, using good principles, organisation and common sense?
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Stockholm87
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Stephane_Mahe
28 Jun 2018, 08:27 AM
Stockholm87
26 Jun 2018, 05:39 PM
We've had posts ridiculing summer football and plastic pitches and we've had posts wondering how we can compete with Iceland. 🤔
If you were to list all the things that have contributed to the success of the Iceland national team, how high up that list would “playing summer football” be?

How many of the Iceland national team play in the Icelandic league?

How are Icelandic clubs doing in Europe?
The list would be 3 things - facilities, coaching and summer football. all essential for Iceland
Of course the best players move on to bigger leagues - that happens everywhere. However they weren't just born playing football abroad. We're talking about the journey not the destination. How did they get from being young players in Iceland to playing in the world cup?
Their best players leaving along with the fact they can't afford/attract foreign players limits their clubs possibilties - obviously. With a population of 300k there is also diminishing returns - there are only so many decent players they can produce - not enough for a 'strong' league. Celtic without the money to buy foreign players would clearly struggle(as witnessed by the feeble efforts of other scottish clubs)

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Bawman
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My six year old is being coached at an academy here in the US. They have sessions where the intention is to give each player up to 2000 touches on the ball.

They are not allowed to clear the ball from defence and the goalie starts every play to a full back or midfielder. It's all about keeping the ball.

My 13 year olds group play at a really technical level, it's actually really impressive how composed and comfortable some of those kids are with the ball.
Edited by Bawman, 28 Jun 2018, 01:00 PM.
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Stockholm87
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Forza
28 Jun 2018, 11:41 AM
Would anyone like to wager that Iceland will return to obscurity and generally being utter mince fairly soon? Who will we be told to learn from next?

Scotland will always have limitations. No one is expecting us to recreate Brazil '70 in any generation, but I think ultimately we should be aiming a bit higher than being the international equivalent of Tony Pulis' Stoke.

How's about we build our own way based on what works for us, using good principles, organisation and common sense?
They may well return to their 'natural level'. But they have reached heights we cannot at the moment which means there are probably things we can learn.

So just waiting for them to fail is not really an option.

Also I feel you are missing the point a little. We should not aspire to be the same as Iceland - we should, given our resources aspire to be better than they are. (Croatia, Denmark perhaps)
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