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The state of Scottish football
Topic Started: 26 Jun 2018, 10:28 AM (9,106 Views)
puroresu_boy
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brianlara67
26 Jun 2018, 12:55 PM
Uruguay did not qualify for 5 World Cups in the period since 1978 so like most small nations good teams come and go based on cycles. Being in South America there are only 10 teams in the South America qualifying campaign and half of them qualify. So it is a lot easier to qualify compared to to Europe. I just checked their record in their last qualifying campaign. They finished second. P18 W9 D4 L5. That is a very ordinary record. Those kind of stats would see them struggle from a European group. But you cannot deny over the years they do a lot better than us. They have won the World Cup twice but it was a long time ago (British teams did not even bother to compete when they won their two cups)

The world has moved on and it will be very difficult for them to win another World Cup as demographics (i.e. population size) dictates who the big boys are now.

Iceland - there qualification for this World Cup (and last Euros) is a blip. They have never qualified before or got close and after the current batch of players go I would imagine they will back in the wilderness due to that pesky demographics.

Croatia - they do consistently punch above they weight I grant you that.

Another thing that has struck me is the amount of players these days with 100 plus caps playing in this World Cup. Some teams have several. The most capped Scottish player is Dalglish and he got the last of his caps over 30 years ago. No one else has even hit 90 caps. You would think as a small nation with a small player pool it would mean if you were any good you would get a long run in the Scotland team from an early age over many years. Doesn't happen though. Same with record goal scorers. There are a lot of record goal scorers at this tournament but the Scottish record (30) is held by Dalglish and Law - again many years ago. No one will get close currently. Make you think Scottish football's good days are all in the past.
But even if you take qualification away and just look at players I have no doubt the likes it Uraguay, Croatia and Iceland will continue to produce better players than Scotland.

They may go through a down period but will have players that would walk into a Scotland eleven.

Just a simple metric is when was the last Genuine world class Scottish player? Alan Hansen?

It a ridiculous that a football mad country like Scotland have not seen any world class players in 30 years.

Belgium isn't much bigger population wise than Scotland, they don't have a great domestic league but again look at the players they are producing. The difference is night and day.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/27827569


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Kingslim
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All the goals get taken down from the grass pitches in the summer, the indoor places are overpriced for weans, and neighbours moan like eff about weans playing in the street. Instead we have weans laying on crap pitches in the freezing winter and they end up giving it up, unless they're truly dedicated.

Also seems to be a postcode lottery for weans getting opportunities. More likely weans in places like Clarkston will get better opportunities than those from housing schemes like Drumchapel or Easterhouse.

The whole infrastructure of kids football seems to have changed and doesn't seem to be for the better.

Then there's our shampooey diet and social issues i.e. weans get to 16 lose interest and go for the rock n roll lifestyle.








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Paul Allen
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Hairytoes
26 Jun 2018, 01:17 PM
Griffiths wasn't played earlier in the qualifying campaign, he still feels a bit bitter about this - looking at his recent interview.
The manager didn't see fit to play our best players, who were all from Celtic - maybe because of culture, stubbornness or whatever. We did well when he played his best players, but it was too late.

We've replaced Strachan eventually, with no idea & a total shambles all of their own making. McLeish won't even do as well as Strachan did.

We're a mess & Celtic is the best things we've got. It'll never improve until the blazers realise that that fact isn't a bad thing - the reason it's a fact is because Celtic plan ahead & have no agenda other than producing as good as we can get footballers within our means.

eff the SFA.
It often feels like Celtic are dragging the Scottish game forward almost entirely on their own. The short-sighted hunnish cabal would be happy with a Scottish game that remains a backwater as long as they are in charge. Until that cancer is removed and we can start to move on, progress will continue to stutter.
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pedrok
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Players from the smaller, medium-sized countries are pretty comfortable moving abroad, at relatively early age.

In Scotland we get excited when a player appears for a top of the English Championship team, or lower league EPL side.

Souter, Burke, Henderson are the few who i can think off that moved abroad.
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Mickeybhoy84
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I think there’s a bit too much emphasis on coaching and not enough on enjoyment, especially when it comes to younger kids. I’ve seen parents move their kids from team to team in search of a “higher” standard of coaching. It doesn’t matter that the child was happy where they were, or that they were the best player in that particular team, the parent would rather they were a sub for a better team.
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FergusMcGrain
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Late 60's, 70's and early 80's, Scotland produced many top class and some World class players. The national team still produced very little. If we had not taken producing players for granted back then and had been forward thinking we could have laid the foundations to make this a great wee footballing Country.

Thatcher, squeezed the life out of Council funding and sold off many areas where kids played football. Teachers who happily ran School football teams were put under more pressure time wise and many chucked it. Kids stopped playing in the street mainly because everybody had cars and it was no longer safe.


The biggest culprit is our National body, the SFA. No plan, no vision no foresight.


I count mysely very lucky to have grown up in the 60's and 70's where you could play football from dawn to dusk and go to Celtic Park and see footballers of the highest calibre, week in week out.


I have no idea what is happening at grass roots level these days and if there is more hope for the future.

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Arsene Parcelie
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It's a bit of everything -

No free facilities - all waste ground is off limits one way or another

It seems kids are more concerned about becoming jugglers than team players.

Football is generally expensive for weans to be coached, so only those kids whose parents can afford to pay for coaching (and ferry their offspring to faraway venues) will generally get a go early on. The unlucky poor ones just have to find a way on the streets or on any area they can get playing.

So more, better, free facilities would allow (poor) folk to develop ball control on their own time as kids having fun, with coaching being a sort of periodic check up, and eventually people will find their level. After that their should be better pathways to progress via coaching, but more importantly there should be a place for those who are not yet ready to go further, but might still do with a bit more time.
A lot of them drift from the game completely because they didn't get there first time, and just become the best 5/6/7s player in their town.


By the way, check the date on this - was freezing that day - Summer football my arse. No one can predict when the break would be.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Drink of this summer. <a href="https://t.co/umlbYzyhWW">pic.twitter.com/umlbYzyhWW</a></p>— Arsène Parçelie (@Arsene_Parcelie) <a href="https://twitter.com/Arsene_Parcelie/status/994287172370010112?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 9, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Joseph D. Pistone
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I help run my son's 2009's team. You can tell very easily which kids play football 3 hours a week and those who play any kind of football outwith organised training, and they are very few. It's without doubt an issue.

It seems kids are more concerned about becoming jugglers than team players

Don't see the issue with the point above. As a coach, you want kids to express themselves and try things they see Ronaldo, Messi, Rogic and Neymar (spit) doing. If they fail 9 times and succeed the 10th time then I'm all for it. The problem you have is parents shouting at kids for being greedy, not passing, causing goals and all this when games are supposed to be non-competitive and scores not recorded. Of course you also work on passing, decision making (my own son has a habit of trying turns in his own box and ending up looking Efe Ambrose) and hope they will start to learn when and where is appropriate to pass and when to try a bit of skill.

Cost is without a doubt a factor. We've 20 kids and not a single one from a poor or disadvantaged background.
Edited by Joseph D. Pistone, 26 Jun 2018, 02:49 PM.
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Kingslim
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Joseph D. Pistone
26 Jun 2018, 02:48 PM
I help run my son's 2009's team. You can tell very easily which kids play football 3 hours a week and those who play any kind of football outwith organised training, and they are very few. It's without doubt an issue.

It seems kids are more concerned about becoming jugglers than team players

Don't see the issue with the point above. As a coach, you want kids to express themselves and try things they see Ronaldo, Messi, Rogic and Neymar (spit) doing. If they fail 9 times and succeed the 10th time then I'm all for it. The problem you have is parents shouting at kids for being greedy, not passing, causing goals and all this when games are supposed to be non-competitive and scores not recorded. Of course you also work on passing, decision making (my own son has a habit of trying turns in his own box and ending up looking Efe Ambrose) and hope they will start to learn when and where is appropriate to pass and when to try a bit of skill.

Cost is without a doubt a factor. We've 20 kids and not a single one from a poor or disadvantaged background.
They still need direction.

I take my son's Primary school team (not now since school finished today) but there are kids with ability who want to do everything themselves, shoot from anywhere, not involving team mates etc.

I try and coach that out of them, get them playing small sided games and limit it to three touch. I also ask them to do their tricks and flicks when they are near an opponent, than trying 4 step overs with nobody near them and it goes out for a throw in.

Kids can have all the ability in the world but if they don't lift their head and look to pass the ball - they won't get very far.
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itwisnaeme
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LeedsTim
26 Jun 2018, 01:21 PM
IainG
26 Jun 2018, 10:28 AM
Mods, move this to the World Cup Discussion thread if more appropriate. Anyway,I've been thinking about where we are as a football nation in relation specifically to three other countries all with smaller populations than Scotland (5.3m). Uruguay 3.4m, Croatia 4.1m,Iceland 0.3m.
All these countries presently do far better than Scotland in International football,in the case of Uruguay,historically so. Croatia wasn't even a country 30 years ago and Iceland's population is less than that of Edinburgh.
In club football the best players in all these three countries play abroad whereas the bulk of our International team play either in Scotland or the lower English leagues. Celtic carry the rest of Scottish club football on their shoulders. Other clubs qualifying for Europe are usually out before the schools go back!
This post however is mainly pointed towards the International game. What is wrong with Scottish International football where football is perceived to be the national sport? Is it coaching,style of play,SFA incompetence in running the game,weather,or is it we just don't produce the players with the ability to succeed? Would a switch to Summer football help?
I've given this a lot of thought whilst watching the World Cup and suspect the whole structure of the game here needs torn down and rebuilt from the grass roots upward with proper coaching and facilities. A long job but surely must be done.
This sort of stuff has been coming up every 2 - 4 years after Scotland has failed to qualify for a tournament. I don't think anything will change because the money isn't there and I don't think the will really exists. Also, with Breaded Ham Heid as manager for the next while that isn't going to help. One thing that does strike me is that we have no BAME players playing for Scotland. You look at all the other European teams and they have black or other ethnic players in the squads. I feel that this helps to create a better type of play as many such players are more naturally gifted than the homegrown ones. I don't really see what we could do to promote this however.
Aside from Matt Phillips, Jordan Archer and Ikechi Anya you mean?
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Butters
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J_C_X
26 Jun 2018, 10:52 AM
Club football dominates Scotland. We punch way above our weight when it comes to club football. Still doesn't excuse our poor record on the international scene.
No we don't. there hasn't been a 2 Scottish teams in the group stage of any European competition since 2009
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Kingslim
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Butters
26 Jun 2018, 03:29 PM
J_C_X
26 Jun 2018, 10:52 AM
Club football dominates Scotland. We punch way above our weight when it comes to club football. Still doesn't excuse our poor record on the international scene.
No we don't. there hasn't been a 2 Scottish teams in the group stage of any European competition since 2009
we had two Scottish clubs in European Finals in 2003 and 2008

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Hustler
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Scotland have a shampoo attitude to grass root football which breeds shampooe national teams. Other countries have progressed and we have either stayed the same or regressed
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Rosco67
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itwisnaeme
26 Jun 2018, 03:14 PM
LeedsTim
26 Jun 2018, 01:21 PM
IainG
26 Jun 2018, 10:28 AM
Mods, move this to the World Cup Discussion thread if more appropriate. Anyway,I've been thinking about where we are as a football nation in relation specifically to three other countries all with smaller populations than Scotland (5.3m). Uruguay 3.4m, Croatia 4.1m,Iceland 0.3m.
All these countries presently do far better than Scotland in International football,in the case of Uruguay,historically so. Croatia wasn't even a country 30 years ago and Iceland's population is less than that of Edinburgh.
In club football the best players in all these three countries play abroad whereas the bulk of our International team play either in Scotland or the lower English leagues. Celtic carry the rest of Scottish club football on their shoulders. Other clubs qualifying for Europe are usually out before the schools go back!
This post however is mainly pointed towards the International game. What is wrong with Scottish International football where football is perceived to be the national sport? Is it coaching,style of play,SFA incompetence in running the game,weather,or is it we just don't produce the players with the ability to succeed? Would a switch to Summer football help?
I've given this a lot of thought whilst watching the World Cup and suspect the whole structure of the game here needs torn down and rebuilt from the grass roots upward with proper coaching and facilities. A long job but surely must be done.
This sort of stuff has been coming up every 2 - 4 years after Scotland has failed to qualify for a tournament. I don't think anything will change because the money isn't there and I don't think the will really exists. Also, with Breaded Ham Heid as manager for the next while that isn't going to help. One thing that does strike me is that we have no BAME players playing for Scotland. You look at all the other European teams and they have black or other ethnic players in the squads. I feel that this helps to create a better type of play as many such players are more naturally gifted than the homegrown ones. I don't really see what we could do to promote this however.
Aside from Matt Phillips, Jordan Archer and Ikechi Anya you mean?
Liam Briddcutt anaw, although he's not been seen up these parts for a while I suppose.
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puroresu_boy
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itwisnaeme
26 Jun 2018, 03:14 PM
LeedsTim
26 Jun 2018, 01:21 PM
IainG
26 Jun 2018, 10:28 AM
Mods, move this to the World Cup Discussion thread if more appropriate. Anyway,I've been thinking about where we are as a football nation in relation specifically to three other countries all with smaller populations than Scotland (5.3m). Uruguay 3.4m, Croatia 4.1m,Iceland 0.3m.
All these countries presently do far better than Scotland in International football,in the case of Uruguay,historically so. Croatia wasn't even a country 30 years ago and Iceland's population is less than that of Edinburgh.
In club football the best players in all these three countries play abroad whereas the bulk of our International team play either in Scotland or the lower English leagues. Celtic carry the rest of Scottish club football on their shoulders. Other clubs qualifying for Europe are usually out before the schools go back!
This post however is mainly pointed towards the International game. What is wrong with Scottish International football where football is perceived to be the national sport? Is it coaching,style of play,SFA incompetence in running the game,weather,or is it we just don't produce the players with the ability to succeed? Would a switch to Summer football help?
I've given this a lot of thought whilst watching the World Cup and suspect the whole structure of the game here needs torn down and rebuilt from the grass roots upward with proper coaching and facilities. A long job but surely must be done.
This sort of stuff has been coming up every 2 - 4 years after Scotland has failed to qualify for a tournament. I don't think anything will change because the money isn't there and I don't think the will really exists. Also, with Breaded Ham Heid as manager for the next while that isn't going to help. One thing that does strike me is that we have no BAME players playing for Scotland. You look at all the other European teams and they have black or other ethnic players in the squads. I feel that this helps to create a better type of play as many such players are more naturally gifted than the homegrown ones. I don't really see what we could do to promote this however.
Aside from Matt Phillips, Jordan Archer and Ikechi Anya you mean?
Probably means good Ethnic minority players.

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brianlara67
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puroresu_boy
26 Jun 2018, 01:43 PM
brianlara67
26 Jun 2018, 12:55 PM
Uruguay did not qualify for 5 World Cups in the period since 1978 so like most small nations good teams come and go based on cycles. Being in South America there are only 10 teams in the South America qualifying campaign and half of them qualify. So it is a lot easier to qualify compared to to Europe. I just checked their record in their last qualifying campaign. They finished second. P18 W9 D4 L5. That is a very ordinary record. Those kind of stats would see them struggle from a European group. But you cannot deny over the years they do a lot better than us. They have won the World Cup twice but it was a long time ago (British teams did not even bother to compete when they won their two cups)

The world has moved on and it will be very difficult for them to win another World Cup as demographics (i.e. population size) dictates who the big boys are now.

Iceland - there qualification for this World Cup (and last Euros) is a blip. They have never qualified before or got close and after the current batch of players go I would imagine they will back in the wilderness due to that pesky demographics.

Croatia - they do consistently punch above they weight I grant you that.

Another thing that has struck me is the amount of players these days with 100 plus caps playing in this World Cup. Some teams have several. The most capped Scottish player is Dalglish and he got the last of his caps over 30 years ago. No one else has even hit 90 caps. You would think as a small nation with a small player pool it would mean if you were any good you would get a long run in the Scotland team from an early age over many years. Doesn't happen though. Same with record goal scorers. There are a lot of record goal scorers at this tournament but the Scottish record (30) is held by Dalglish and Law - again many years ago. No one will get close currently. Make you think Scottish football's good days are all in the past.
But even if you take qualification away and just look at players I have no doubt the likes it Uraguay, Croatia and Iceland will continue to produce better players than Scotland.

They may go through a down period but will have players that would walk into a Scotland eleven.

Just a simple metric is when was the last Genuine world class Scottish player? Alan Hansen?

It a ridiculous that a football mad country like Scotland have not seen any world class players in 30 years.

Belgium isn't much bigger population wise than Scotland, they don't have a great domestic league but again look at the players they are producing. The difference is night and day.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/27827569


Belgium has more than twice the population of Scotland mate but I take your point. We should be doing better. Dalglish was probably the last world class player we had.
Edited by brianlara67, 26 Jun 2018, 04:27 PM.
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Luca
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We’re a nation which prides itself on how pished we get and how bad our diet is. Kids grow up thinking it’s better and more acceptable to get pished than it is to dedicate themselves to training and self improvement. To add to that we have a governing body that is beyond embarrassing and out of touch. It’s no surprise we produce almost no world class talent.
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Lobey Dosser
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Luca
26 Jun 2018, 04:27 PM
We’re a nation which prides itself on how pished we get and how bad our diet is. Kids grow up thinking it’s better and more acceptable to get pished than it is to dedicate themselves to training and self improvement. To add to that we have a governing body that is beyond embarrassing and out of touch. It’s no surprise we produce almost no world class talent.
Harsh, but in the main true.
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Arsene Parcelie
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Joseph D. Pistone
26 Jun 2018, 02:48 PM
I help run my son's 2009's team. You can tell very easily which kids play football 3 hours a week and those who play any kind of football outwith organised training, and they are very few. It's without doubt an issue.

It seems kids are more concerned about becoming jugglers than team players

Don't see the issue with the point above. As a coach, you want kids to express themselves and try things they see Ronaldo, Messi, Rogic and Neymar (spit) doing. If they fail 9 times and succeed the 10th time then I'm all for it. The problem you have is parents shouting at kids for being greedy, not passing, causing goals and all this when games are supposed to be non-competitive and scores not recorded. Of course you also work on passing, decision making (my own son has a habit of trying turns in his own box and ending up looking Efe Ambrose) and hope they will start to learn when and where is appropriate to pass and when to try a bit of skill.

Cost is without a doubt a factor. We've 20 kids and not a single one from a poor or disadvantaged background.
What age is appropriate to start coaching kids? Is there any point in doing it before 7 years old? Encouragement and fun surely, before they have to suffer team disappointment, which they'll get once they discover the joys of supporting a club.

It's all very well doing the tricks of their heroes, but unless they can do it in a team situation it's pointless.
My point about them developing on their own by, e.g., going outside after tea with a ball, is that they try these things themselves without intervention, and they learn the basics by repetition and under no real pressure apart from peer oneupmanship. (Your point about failing) - in the end, they will develop their own style and should, if any good, be able to at least kick the ball in the right direction. Maybe the technique could be improved if shown how to, but that's just more homework.

Then, by the time they come to being involved in organised coaching, the basics are covered (self taught) and the importance of playing with the head up, and spatial awareness can be introduced. Passing and receiving a ball under pressure, and awareness when not, are more important than a couple of stepovers.
I don't know at what age proper tackling is introduced, so whatever age that may be is when the serious business begins - by that time a player should not have to think about controlling a ball.

Showboating is fine if there's end product, but if you want teamwork, you need passing and movement into appropriate spaces.
Oh aye, and today's players need to be athletes, ripped and dedicated to the lifestyle, so there's more hard work once they become of age to start that stuff.
All of this assumes that someone actually is trying to get to the pro ranks and not just doing it for the fun of kicking a ball around with their pals.

The true prospects will stand out once you reach this point, but the problem is most of those that aren't quite as developed at the same age seem to take any rejection hard and give up and go back to the Playstation instead of trying a couple more years. The alternatives to football are so varied that it's easier to find things that kids enjoy more if they are done with reaching for the stars.

With regard to children chucking sport after a setback; the Smartphone generation can open an app and start playing, become a virtual expert in a day, all without the hard work and time required to make it in a real sport.
It seems to me that kids today find it easier to sit on the couch or in the bedroom playing online sims than being outside getting out of breath and because of this a lot of sports are losing young participants.

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Paul Allen
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Lobey Dosser
26 Jun 2018, 04:32 PM
Luca
26 Jun 2018, 04:27 PM
We’re a nation which prides itself on how pished we get and how bad our diet is. Kids grow up thinking it’s better and more acceptable to get pished than it is to dedicate themselves to training and self improvement. To add to that we have a governing body that is beyond embarrassing and out of touch. It’s no surprise we produce almost no world class talent.
Harsh, but in the main true.
When is it just 'true'? None of that seems all that harsh to me. Particularly the SFA, they're a joke and aren't fit for purpose.

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