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Tommy Burns, as manager.
Topic Started: 7 Jun 2018, 04:58 PM (5,742 Views)
georgiebhoy
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tinsoldier
7 Jun 2018, 06:43 PM
Exciting times - new stadium being built, quality signings, and of course our first trophy since '89 with that cup win over Airdrie (which I celebrated like we'd won the European Cup again).

Unfortunately the games he did manage to beat Rangers in ultimately didn't matter. Too many draws and a poor defence did for him too.

I will remember his time fondly though for the sometimes brilliant attacking football we played.
Same here.

Midfield and attack we were pretty good, sometimes a real joy to watch.

Defence and goalkeeper? Regularly appalling.

He definitely brought the thunder back and I loved going to games back then.
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JohnRobertson
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CELTBHOY1988
7 Jun 2018, 06:50 PM
Gonga
7 Jun 2018, 06:34 PM
remy mcswain
7 Jun 2018, 06:19 PM
Very poor. A failure. Couldn’t win a game that mattered. Too emotional.
If you are judging solely on him failing to better a superior Rangers side that had a similar winning mentality to what we have now then fire away.

I think Tommy’s era as manager was actually quite a bright spell in amongst an inglorious decade.

We were finally bringing in some exciting names and even though the three amigos went a bit bandit on us, he had us playing some exceptional football. And it was at a time that the club was modernising under Fergus.

As we have shown this last few years, once you have a strong winning mentality at a club it’s very hard to shift.

MoN managed to do it, but was given finances unlike any Celtic manager in our history.

Tommy had us playing the kind of stuff that took out us out of the early 90’s hellhole and gave us something to look forward to again.

To say he was a failure and too emotional given who he was, his links to the club and the Hun dominated era in which he managed is a joke.
Yes, we played great stuff under Tommy, but it was still glorious failure. Tommy was a brilliant coach, not so much of manager.
Lovely guy, too emotionally attached, never mind results against the huns we dropped points by drawing too many daft games. Not sure if he was cut out for manager but was an absolutely fantastic coach.
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littlegmbhoy
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JohnRobertson
8 Jun 2018, 10:26 AM
CELTBHOY1988
7 Jun 2018, 06:50 PM
Gonga
7 Jun 2018, 06:34 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Yes, we played great stuff under Tommy, but it was still glorious failure. Tommy was a brilliant coach, not so much of manager.
Lovely guy, too emotionally attached, never mind results against the huns we dropped points by drawing too many daft games. Not sure if he was cut out for manager but was an absolutely fantastic coach.
His record at Killie indicates he was cut out for a gaffer role.

Did reasonably well at Reading as well.

Where he fell short was too emotionally involved & the pressure of beating a pretty good Rnagers team with too much money & clout in the Scottish game.

His teams played generally speaking of course pretty good football and if background issues at club were more smooth I would argue he would have been a championship winning manager that we all craved.









Edited by littlegmbhoy, 8 Jun 2018, 10:38 AM.
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Forza
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The Hampden season was my first season ticket, despite being at games pretty regularly for the two seasons before that. Drew half (half!) our league games (18).

It was absolutely grim. As I get older now I realise that there are other reasons for that than just how poor we were.

Plenty clubs who relocate have issues, and looking back we certainly fell into that trap. Spurs and Arsenal have had indifferent results using Wembley for home games, and West Ham still don't look at home in Stratford.

It was just all a bit soulless and before the turn of the year nobody seemed to care much. The crowds dwindled badly after early optimism.

I was pretty sure we broke the club record for the number of league games without a win in that season. Sure enough, having checked the Wiki we did not win a league game after beating Hibs on 24 September 1994, until doing so against Falkirk on 31st December. Eleven straight league games without a win. Eight draws, including four 0-0 draws, and three defeats. :rubeyes: We did win the League semi against Aberdeen in that time, but also lost the final.

Tommy had to suffer the League Cup Final against Raith like the rest of us, so I'm glad it ended with the Scottish Cup Final win.

The 1995/96 season back at Paradise was such an improvement, but it brought nothing. The wheels came off in 96/97 after losing the semi final replay against Falkirk. I've done a good job forgetting most of that league season for obvious reasons.

The football at times in the latter two seasons was very good, but it was ultimately very flawed.
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Green Homer J
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Persevering with Marshall was a mistake and not buying ‘real’ defenders were his downfall. Looking middle to front in 95/96 there was some real quality, but the imbalance defensively was unbelievable. Jackie Mac and McKinlay were not great defenders but were excellent going forward. Boyd was not a great CB and Hughes, although a trier was no where near what we needed at the back at that time. Even when Stubbs came in, it took Rieper to play alongside him and get the best from him. If Rieper has signed instead of hughes, then I think that would have made the difference in that season.
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smudgethecat
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Didn't rate him as a player or manager. Top class person though, as many of us in the east end witnessed outside football
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Spare Hoops
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mikebhoy
7 Jun 2018, 05:40 PM


Was a real “farewell to youthful optimism” moment for me when his reign came to that horrible, soaking wet, miserable night at Ibrox in the Cup semi final replay.
Exactly this. One of my very worst Celtic moments, that game. Not as important or high profile, but in emotional terms, up there with Seville.
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littlegmbhoy
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Forza
8 Jun 2018, 10:40 AM
The Hampden season was my first season ticket, despite being at games pretty regularly for the two seasons before that. Drew half (half!) our league games (18).

It was absolutely grim. As I get older now I realise that there are other reasons for that than just how poor we were.

Plenty clubs who relocate have issues, and looking back we certainly fell into that trap. Spurs and Arsenal have had indifferent results using Wembley for home games, and West Ham still don't look at home in Stratford.

It was just all a bit soulless and before the turn of the year nobody seemed to care much. The crowds dwindled badly after early optimism.

I was pretty sure we broke the club record for the number of league games without a win in that season. Sure enough, having checked the Wiki we did not win a league game after beating Hibs on 24 September 1994, until doing so against Falkirk on 31st December. Eleven straight league games without a win. Eight draws, including four 0-0 draws, and three defeats. :rubeyes: We did win the League semi against Aberdeen in that time, but also lost the final.

Tommy had to suffer the League Cup Final against Raith like the rest of us, so I'm glad it ended with the Scottish Cup Final win.

The 1995/96 season back at Paradise was such an improvement, but it brought nothing. The wheels came off in 96/97 after losing the semi final replay against Falkirk. I've done a good job forgetting most of that league season for obvious reasons.

The football at times in the latter two seasons was very good, but it was ultimately very flawed.

Think it is all about what angle you are coming from but of course facts cannot be denied and of course you are correct but Tommy was given a limited budget after Macari's (worst celtic squad & team of all time) Celtic side that he inherited first season & how he got some out of the door and "tried" to get some of them to try to play better - it was bad to watch and results were grim. That said Hamdump was a poor season and I like yourself had the my first full fledged Celtic book that year. It was chronic.







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JohnRobertson
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littlegmbhoy
8 Jun 2018, 10:36 AM
JohnRobertson
8 Jun 2018, 10:26 AM
CELTBHOY1988
7 Jun 2018, 06:50 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Lovely guy, too emotionally attached, never mind results against the huns we dropped points by drawing too many daft games. Not sure if he was cut out for manager but was an absolutely fantastic coach.
His record at Killie indicates he was cut out for a gaffer role.

Did reasonably well at Reading as well.

Where he fell short was too emotionally involved & the pressure of beating a pretty good Rnagers team with too much money & clout in the Scottish game.

His teams played generally speaking of course pretty good football and if background issues at club were more smooth I would argue he would have been a championship winning manager that we all craved.









If I remember right, Tommy took over at Reading around a year and a half, when they were close to relegation when he got the job and through no fault of his he couldn't turn them. I think what cost him there was the fact he couldn't get them promoted at the first attempt and lost his job early the following one. He was great at Kilmarnock, had them playing good stuff, but as others have said as well, maybe too emotionally attached as manager at Celtic.

I've been fortunate to see some of his coaching sessions at Celtic and Newcastle and honestly he was miles ahead of what was getting done at the time
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littlegmbhoy
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JohnRobertson
8 Jun 2018, 10:52 AM
littlegmbhoy
8 Jun 2018, 10:36 AM
JohnRobertson
8 Jun 2018, 10:26 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
His record at Killie indicates he was cut out for a gaffer role.

Did reasonably well at Reading as well.

Where he fell short was too emotionally involved & the pressure of beating a pretty good Rnagers team with too much money & clout in the Scottish game.

His teams played generally speaking of course pretty good football and if background issues at club were more smooth I would argue he would have been a championship winning manager that we all craved.









If I remember right, Tommy took over at Reading around a year and a half, when they were close to relegation when he got the job and through no fault of his he couldn't turn them. I think what cost him there was the fact he couldn't get them promoted at the first attempt and lost his job early the following one. He was great at Kilmarnock, had them playing good stuff, but as others have said as well, maybe too emotionally attached as manager at Celtic.

I've been fortunate to see some of his coaching sessions at Celtic and Newcastle and honestly he was miles ahead of what was getting done at the time
Tommy IIRC took time to go to Ajax & Juventus IIRC it was the first time I had heard of other coaches/managers doing that type of thing.

Him & Davie Hay at one point went to see Breda & big Pierre on one of his trips to the Netherlands.



Edited by littlegmbhoy, 8 Jun 2018, 11:47 AM.
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The Notorious Larry Duff
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His teams were free flowing, easy on the eye but had a soft underbelly when it came to crunch games against the Huns.

Very Arsenalesque.
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Jessica Fletcher
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The Notorious Larry Duff
8 Jun 2018, 12:09 PM
His teams were free flowing, easy on the eye but had a soft underbelly when it came to crunch games against the Huns.

Very Arsenalesque.
Not just against the huns but we never seemed to take advantage of the rare occasions when they did slip up.

That's my memory of Burn's Celtic at least, accurate or not.
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JohnRobertson
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littlegmbhoy
8 Jun 2018, 11:47 AM
JohnRobertson
8 Jun 2018, 10:52 AM
littlegmbhoy
8 Jun 2018, 10:36 AM

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If I remember right, Tommy took over at Reading around a year and a half, when they were close to relegation when he got the job and through no fault of his he couldn't turn them. I think what cost him there was the fact he couldn't get them promoted at the first attempt and lost his job early the following one. He was great at Kilmarnock, had them playing good stuff, but as others have said as well, maybe too emotionally attached as manager at Celtic.

I've been fortunate to see some of his coaching sessions at Celtic and Newcastle and honestly he was miles ahead of what was getting done at the time
Tommy IIRC took time to go to Ajax & Juventus IIRC it was the first time I had heard of other coaches/managers doing that type of thing.

Him & Davie Hay at one point went to see Breda & big Pierre on one of his trips to the Netherlands.



You're right, I was by total luck at a coaching seminar/session that Tommy organised in Glasgow many years ago. He brought a few of the Ajax youth coaches over who spoke about their preparation, sessions, player development and player care and it was a revelation but it's what Tommy was doing at already, he had bought into that years before it was thought about here.
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CaltonBhoy1967
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8 Jun 2018, 12:14 AM
Atticus Lynch
7 Jun 2018, 08:22 PM
Tommy Burns will always be a Celtic legend but after some real promise, he turned out to be merely an average Celtic manager as the pressure became too much for him to overcome IMO.

In his first season we finished an embarrassing 4th with just 11 wins & 39 goals from 36 league games. A campaign that saw us go 11 consecutive league games between October & Boxing Day without winning. :rubeyes:

Finally we ended a 6 year trophy drought with the Scottish Cup, but losing the League Cup Final to Raith Rovers was a new low that epitomised our club in the 90s. The huns knocked us out of the cups a few times as well; like derby games of that era, Rangers had too much for us when it mattered most.

Transfer wise he supplemented PVH with valuable signings like Thom, McNamara, Wieghorst, Stubbs, Cadete & Di Canio (although our reliance on the silky fascist became increasingly detrimental to our collective).

1995/96 saw Celtic playing an attractive style of football, largely appreciated after Macari just 2 years prior. Despite just one loss, we narrowly missed out on the title again. Three draws becoming wins would have seen us become champions, but it was considerable improvement after years in the pre-McCann doldrums.

In Europe we were outclassed by opposition like PSG or the not-so-classy Hamburg. :boik:

In Burns' final season we capitulated as the huns won 9IAR. While we ended up just 5 points short, in reality we never recovered from losing consecutive games at Rugby Park then 1-0 at home courtesy of Laudrup. We lost all 4 league derbies that season, the first time in the 22 years of the Scottish Premier Division.

Elsewhere domestically, we were knocked out of the League Cup after extra time at Tynecastle, while in Tommy's final game as manager we lost to Falkirk in a Scottish Cup semi final replay. A sad way to depart for a man of immense decency. :clover:

Posted Image
Greatest picture ever
Magnificent picture but Billy lifting the Big Cup is THE most iconic ever Celtic picture for me.
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C J Thorpe
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Jessica Fletcher
8 Jun 2018, 12:13 PM
The Notorious Larry Duff
8 Jun 2018, 12:09 PM
His teams were free flowing, easy on the eye but had a soft underbelly when it came to crunch games against the Huns.

Very Arsenalesque.
Not just against the huns but we never seemed to take advantage of the rare occasions when they did slip up.

That's my memory of Burn's Celtic at least, accurate or not.
We never managed to get PVH, Thom, Di Canio and Cadete on the pitch together against the huns either. They could have ripped them a new one.
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remy mcswain
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C J Thorpe
9 Jun 2018, 12:36 PM
Jessica Fletcher
8 Jun 2018, 12:13 PM
The Notorious Larry Duff
8 Jun 2018, 12:09 PM
His teams were free flowing, easy on the eye but had a soft underbelly when it came to crunch games against the Huns.

Very Arsenalesque.
Not just against the huns but we never seemed to take advantage of the rare occasions when they did slip up.

That's my memory of Burn's Celtic at least, accurate or not.
We never managed to get PVH, Thom, Di Canio and Cadete on the pitch together against the huns either. They could have ripped them a new one.
Thom appears to have mythical status on this board. Injured way too often, disappeared in matches for long periods and very rarely did anything in the games that mattered.
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idyllwild


remy mcswain
9 Jun 2018, 02:02 PM
C J Thorpe
9 Jun 2018, 12:36 PM
Jessica Fletcher
8 Jun 2018, 12:13 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
We never managed to get PVH, Thom, Di Canio and Cadete on the pitch together against the huns either. They could have ripped them a new one.
Thom appears to have mythical status on this board. Injured way too often, disappeared in matches for long periods and very rarely did anything in the games that mattered.
Aye, when he was good he was eh, good. Which was nowhere near often enough.

Never seen anyone who disappeared as much in matches. At least until Zurawski.
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tinsoldier
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idyllwild
9 Jun 2018, 04:17 PM
remy mcswain
9 Jun 2018, 02:02 PM
C J Thorpe
9 Jun 2018, 12:36 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Thom appears to have mythical status on this board. Injured way too often, disappeared in matches for long periods and very rarely did anything in the games that mattered.
Aye, when he was good he was eh, good. Which was nowhere near often enough.

Never seen anyone who disappeared as much in matches. At least until Zurawski.
He was bloody infuriating as he certainly had the talent.
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Silent Witness
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I can't add much to what has been stated, nor improve on some of the excellent summaries posted on this period. Have to agree that a great Celtic servant didn't quite make it as a manager.

Would say in mitigation that the challenge was almost unbearable at the time and we really were under siege on all sides in the mid-1990's. A lot of people, not just huns, but just as bad, wanted us out of business or at least damaged beyond recovery. It would have broken the best of us and hardly any surprise it took its toll on TB. I look back now and regret that we put so much store on trying to stop their NIAR, when we should have focussed on rebuilding the team, buying more solid pros rather than mercurial types like Cadete and Di Canio.

1995/6 will always be a special season for me, though, as it was when we had our Celtic back. It was the first season after the Centenary Double where we even managed to finish 2nd, and although we didn't win the title, it was no longer an ordeal to go and watch the Hoops.

You could write a book about TB's tenure as it was a roller coaster 3 years. While it ended disappointingly, ultimately we did get back to the top.

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Broadsword
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If I’m being kind I would say that his greatest ‘achievement’ was getting everyone around the club to start believing that we could win the league. It was exciting and infuriating in equal measure. The reality was that he was replaced by a far more astute manager.
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