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Tommy Burns, as manager.
Topic Started: 7 Jun 2018, 04:58 PM (5,743 Views)
Belgrano
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Gonga
7 Jun 2018, 07:09 PM
Then again, I’ve always had a tendency to look at how different managers leave footprints after they have gone
You couldn't let the opportunity slip, could you? :lol:

Rodgers success is down to Rodgers. Ronny is gone. Let him go.
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Gonga
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Belgrano
7 Jun 2018, 07:14 PM
Gonga
7 Jun 2018, 07:09 PM
Then again, I’ve always had a tendency to look at how different managers leave footprints after they have gone
You couldn't let the opportunity slip, could you? :lol:

Rodgers success is down to Rodgers. Ronny is gone. Let him go.
:lol:
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Stephane_Mahe
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Butters
7 Jun 2018, 07:10 PM
Stephane_Mahe
7 Jun 2018, 06:43 PM
Gonga
7 Jun 2018, 06:34 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Quote:
 
early 90’s hellhole


And there it is.

I’m actually surprised it took so long.


See the season we lost all 4 league games vs the huns but only finished 5 points or behind them, would we have won the league if we’d won 2 of they games? Obviously mathematically we would have, but would it have worked out like that or were the huns always comfortable/we’d have shat it?
They won it with 2 games to go, they beat Aberdeen in their last home game at Ibrox.

10th April the Huns lose at Hearts and in typical Celtic fashion unable to win when it mattered we couldn't beat Kilmarnock at home, it effectively sealed the title for them.

It put them 4 points ahead of us (effectively 5 with goal difference) & we both had 4 games each to go.
Cheers for the reply.

We’d probably have shat it then if we had a chance of winning it?

Any points during the season when it genuinely looked like we would win league. I was 12 at time, can’t really remember.
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Ess
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Difficult time, wanted it to work out so much but had to eventually accept that it wasn't going to.
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tinsoldier
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TheBeerMonkey
7 Jun 2018, 07:11 PM
I don’t think the players were scared of failing him in the way the huns were scared of failing the cardigan. Hence the final game when the players abdicated all responsibility and spent 90 minutes hoofing the ball into an empty penalty box or passing it to di Canio- TB said there was no leaders but it was his team.

His teams couldn’t dish it out when needed. A joy to watch his teams going forward but needed a Rieper and a goalie.
I remember an interview Tommy gave - Radio Scotland I thnk - when he admitted that we saw the best of Alan Stubbs when he was paired with Reiper.
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There can’t be many teams throughout football history with such a clear gap in quality just within their own starting XI. In PVH, Di Canio, Thom, and Cadete, we had four attacking players good enough to play for anyone in Europe, and yet we had numpties like Hughes, Mackay and McNally at the other end of the pitch. The fact that we managed to sign them shows how different the football landscape was.
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idyllwild


Stephane_Mahe
7 Jun 2018, 07:23 PM
Butters
7 Jun 2018, 07:10 PM
Stephane_Mahe
7 Jun 2018, 06:43 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
They won it with 2 games to go, they beat Aberdeen in their last home game at Ibrox.

10th April the Huns lose at Hearts and in typical Celtic fashion unable to win when it mattered we couldn't beat Kilmarnock at home, it effectively sealed the title for them.

It put them 4 points ahead of us (effectively 5 with goal difference) & we both had 4 games each to go.
Cheers for the reply.

We’d probably have shat it then if we had a chance of winning it?

Any points during the season when it genuinely looked like we would win league. I was 12 at time, can’t really remember.
Aye, we played some amazing stuff that season. Absolutely destroyed a few teams. But there was understandably a lack of genuine belief among the support, given what had gone on in the previous few years. So the longer it went on without beating the huns, the more we feared that we didn’t have the mentality to win it.

I was absolutely convinced early on we were in with a great chance to win it. We had the players and we were in great form. But when it came to the crunch, everyone shat it. Manager down to the players, players down to the fans, and as the manager was too much of a fan, it was a self-fulfilling thing.

That’s my memory of it anyway. It was a Seville season. Should’ve won something, could’ve won the lot, played some great stuff, had some great players, won eff all.
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Luigi
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Stephane_Mahe
7 Jun 2018, 06:43 PM
Gonga
7 Jun 2018, 06:34 PM
remy mcswain
7 Jun 2018, 06:19 PM
Very poor. A failure. Couldn’t win a game that mattered. Too emotional.
If you are judging solely on him failing to better a superior Rangers side that had a similar winning mentality to what we have now then fire away.

I think Tommy’s era as manager was actually quite a bright spell in amongst an inglorious decade.

We were finally bringing in some exciting names and even though the three amigos went a bit bandit on us, he had us playing some exceptional football. And it was at a time that the club was modernising under Fergus.

As we have shown this last few years, once you have a strong winning mentality at a club it’s very hard to shift.

MoN managed to do it, but was given finances unlike any Celtic manager in our history.

Tommy had us playing the kind of stuff that took out us out of the early 90’s hellhole and gave us something to look forward to again.

To say he was a failure and too emotional given who he was, his links to the club and the Hun dominated era in which he managed is a joke.
Quote:
 
early 90’s hellhole


And there it is.

I’m actually surprised it took so long.


See the season we lost all 4 league games vs the huns but only finished 5 points or behind them, would we have won the league if we’d won 2 of they games? Obviously mathematically we would have, but would it have worked out like that or were the huns always comfortable/we’d have shat it?
If you hadn't been such a madman then we might have done better :ph43r:
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Atticus Lynch
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Tommy Burns will always be a Celtic legend but after some real promise, he turned out to be merely an average Celtic manager as the pressure became too much for him to overcome IMO.

In his first season we finished an embarrassing 4th with just 11 wins & 39 goals from 36 league games. A campaign that saw us go 11 consecutive league games between October & Boxing Day without winning. :rubeyes:

Finally we ended a 6 year trophy drought with the Scottish Cup, but losing the League Cup Final to Raith Rovers was a new low that epitomised our club in the 90s. The huns knocked us out of the cups a few times as well; like derby games of that era, Rangers had too much for us when it mattered most.

Transfer wise he supplemented PVH with valuable signings like Thom, McNamara, Wieghorst, Stubbs, Cadete & Di Canio (although our reliance on the silky fascist became increasingly detrimental to our collective).

1995/96 saw Celtic playing an attractive style of football, largely appreciated after Macari just 2 years prior. Despite just one loss, we narrowly missed out on the title again. Three draws becoming wins would have seen us become champions, but it was considerable improvement after years in the pre-McCann doldrums.

In Europe we were outclassed by opposition like PSG or the not-so-classy Hamburg. :boik:

In Burns' final season we capitulated as the huns won 9IAR. While we ended up just 5 points short, in reality we never recovered from losing consecutive games at Rugby Park then 1-0 at home courtesy of Laudrup. We lost all 4 league derbies that season, the first time in the 22 years of the Scottish Premier Division.

Elsewhere domestically, we were knocked out of the League Cup after extra time at Tynecastle, while in Tommy's final game as manager we lost to Falkirk in a Scottish Cup semi final replay. A sad way to depart for a man of immense decency. :clover:

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Stephane_Mahe
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idyllwild
7 Jun 2018, 08:19 PM
Stephane_Mahe
7 Jun 2018, 07:23 PM
Butters
7 Jun 2018, 07:10 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Cheers for the reply.

We’d probably have shat it then if we had a chance of winning it?

Any points during the season when it genuinely looked like we would win league. I was 12 at time, can’t really remember.
Aye, we played some amazing stuff that season. Absolutely destroyed a few teams. But there was understandably a lack of genuine belief among the support, given what had gone on in the previous few years. So the longer it went on without beating the huns, the more we feared that we didn’t have the mentality to win it.

I was absolutely convinced early on we were in with a great chance to win it. We had the players and we were in great form. But when it came to the crunch, everyone shat it. Manager down to the players, players down to the fans, and as the manager was too much of a fan, it was a self-fulfilling thing.

That’s my memory of it anyway. It was a Seville season. Should’ve won something, could’ve won the lot, played some great stuff, had some great players, won eff all.
Cheers for that.
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Ned Rise
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If Cadete had in the team from the time we signed him, then we could well have won the league. It took a while, but Celtic finally got Jim Farry for it. He was also ineligible to play in the Scottish Cup semi-final against the huns due to Farry, which we lost.

Who's to say what Tommy Burns' record as a manager might have been had it not been for that intervention?

The following New Year, Cadete was denied a valid goal for no reason whatsoever at Ibrox in a game we went on to lose. Again, TB's record could look completely different if it wasn't for something like that in a crucial six-pointer.

They were going to get that 9 in a row by hook or by crook, and when we were getting close it was usually by crook.

It would be interesting if McCann was at the helm in the wake of the EBT cheating. He was like a dog with a bone over Farry and - after a three-year battle - he got his man.

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Jimmy_Quinn's_Hattrick
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pablo5
7 Jun 2018, 05:52 PM
Butters
7 Jun 2018, 05:43 PM
Rangers were throwing money (not their own) about like it was going out of fashion but they didn't spend it very well, particularly from 93 onwards. Smith was given good players & other than Laudrip I can't think of many that produced what they should have for them. Gascoigne was nowhere near what he should have been, Mykhaylychenko was played out of position, Duncuan Ferguson a nightmare of a centre forward bought for 4 million and shoved on the wing, Salenko, Boli was a top class French Champions League winning central defender who ended looking a bombscare. Teams built on a fraction of Rangers budget were humiliating them every year in the Champions League, that wasn't an all conquering Huns team, they were there for the taken and we couldn't do it. For what it's worth I think Advocaat side at the end of the 90s were a much better team.than their 9 IAR side

Much is made of only losing 1 league game all season & not winning the league, that game was lost to Rangers who we played 6 times in all competitions and won none of them. That Celtic team was mentally fragile & couldn't be trusted as deep down you knew they would let you down the minute they were put under any pressure, it was a shocking mentality that lingered through the club until MON arrived.


It was an understandable mentality though when you consider where we had been. It takes a very long time to build that psychology into a club and the 95 Cup win was a big part of the recovery.

I'm still convinced that the Judas saga knocked something out of the club that never really came back until Lambert scored in the 6-2.
It's interesting how certain events can seemingly have a lasting domino effect on a club. The Judas saga being one of them; Burns' death was, I think, possibly another. It was that which led to Strachan staying on a year too long, and the consequential series of events that led to us going three years without the title.

On that point, I wonder, had Tommy not been ill, is there a chance he could have become manager in 2008? He was coaching with the first team, was clearly respected by a core of the squad, heavily involved in developing several of them into first team players, had a big hand in the development of Lennoxtown and had an interest in managing the national team after Smith. Irrespective of whether or not it would have been a successful appointment, he certainly would have at least matched the credentials of Mowbray and Lennon, not to mention some of the other candidates at that time.
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Atticus Lynch
7 Jun 2018, 08:22 PM
Tommy Burns will always be a Celtic legend but after some real promise, he turned out to be merely an average Celtic manager as the pressure became too much for him to overcome IMO.

In his first season we finished an embarrassing 4th with just 11 wins & 39 goals from 36 league games. A campaign that saw us go 11 consecutive league games between October & Boxing Day without winning. :rubeyes:

Finally we ended a 6 year trophy drought with the Scottish Cup, but losing the League Cup Final to Raith Rovers was a new low that epitomised our club in the 90s. The huns knocked us out of the cups a few times as well; like derby games of that era, Rangers had too much for us when it mattered most.

Transfer wise he supplemented PVH with valuable signings like Thom, McNamara, Wieghorst, Stubbs, Cadete & Di Canio (although our reliance on the silky fascist became increasingly detrimental to our collective).

1995/96 saw Celtic playing an attractive style of football, largely appreciated after Macari just 2 years prior. Despite just one loss, we narrowly missed out on the title again. Three draws becoming wins would have seen us become champions, but it was considerable improvement after years in the pre-McCann doldrums.

In Europe we were outclassed by opposition like PSG or the not-so-classy Hamburg. :boik:

In Burns' final season we capitulated as the huns won 9IAR. While we ended up just 5 points short, in reality we never recovered from losing consecutive games at Rugby Park then 1-0 at home courtesy of Laudrup. We lost all 4 league derbies that season, the first time in the 22 years of the Scottish Premier Division.

Elsewhere domestically, we were knocked out of the League Cup after extra time at Tynecastle, while in Tommy's final game as manager we lost to Falkirk in a Scottish Cup semi final replay. A sad way to depart for a man of immense decency. :clover:

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Seems to me he had some strengths as a manager, on the whole he appeared to have great man management abilities and the ability to build a team ethic. There were some points that I felt he lacked, he wasn’t a great technical manager.
Came in at an exciting time for the club, built the first Celtic team capable of challenging for the title I had seen. Ultimately it ended badly though and we were very lucky the Huns also imploded as Jansen had to build more or less a new team to stop the ten.
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littlegmbhoy
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Lived through the early 90’s when I started to fully understand football as a 12/13/14 year old...Huns winning everything.

Tommy gave me hope again as a Celtic supporter. Huns just had to much money for whatever reason and he could not get wins nor results when it REALLY mattered.

His style of football was excellent and with the 3 amigos we had flair and panache – first time I had seen football in Scotland played in a correct fashion & it was my team doing it. Albeit huns had some cracking players they never quite seemed to play as fast and as direct as us under Tommy.

Without me being in that dressing room his message to the players was probably too emotional at times & before big games.

Don’t think his lack of relationship with the bunnet did him any favours but Billy Stark and David Hay behind him I know for a fact kept him at the club when the bunnet was at times trying to push him out.

He dealt with a lot behind the scenes that I think hurt and affected him as well at the time.
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CaltonBhoy1967
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Gonga
7 Jun 2018, 06:34 PM
remy mcswain
7 Jun 2018, 06:19 PM
Very poor. A failure. Couldn’t win a game that mattered. Too emotional.
If you are judging solely on him failing to better a superior Rangers side that had a similar winning mentality to what we have now then fire away.

I think Tommy’s era as manager was actually quite a bright spell in amongst an inglorious decade.

We were finally bringing in some exciting names and even though the three amigos went a bit bandit on us, he had us playing some exceptional football. And it was at a time that the club was modernising under Fergus.

As we have shown this last few years, once you have a strong winning mentality at a club it’s very hard to shift.

MoN managed to do it, but was given finances unlike any Celtic manager in our history.

Tommy had us playing the kind of stuff that took out us out of the early 90’s hellhole and gave us something to look forward to again.

To say he was a failure and too emotional given who he was, his links to the club and the Hun dominated era in which he managed is a joke.
Fwiw Billy Stark who was Tommy's Assistant says when he reflects and thinks back on their time managing Celtic ultimately he feels Tommy's love and passion for Celtic did make him "too emotional" (his very words) in the job and worked against him in his dealings with Fergus (Fergus won nearly every battle* ) and especially when it came to the crucial games he thinks the players picked up on Tommy's emotional input and instead of being a positive it became a negative " desperately need to win" scenario again especially against the huns and they bottled it - He also says they lost crucial games to decisions going against them but what really costs them at the end of the day was focussing too much on the ideology of trying to "Play the Celtic Way" to the detriment of the defensive side of the game .


A quick glance through this thread and those that saw the team play through 1994-1997 generally seem to have the same take as Billy Stark - Offensively we could be great - Defensively we could be a sieve.


As to the OP Tommy was a very good Celtic player but Legendary Player is bandied about far too easily and readily - Real Legends are The Lions/McGrain's/Larsson's etc in Celtic's history.



*Anyone who ever had any dealings at all with Fergus would know he was a tough.tough wee fecker to negotiate with - In that respect only I wish he was at the helm as regards the huns finally being found out - There would be no playing around it with diplomacy he would have gone for the jugular and he would have won.
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Mickeybhoy84
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He didn’t have the players, especially in defence, to successfully implement his style of football. Ultimately he was manager during a transitional period for the club so it would harsh to be overly critical of his tenure.
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CaltonBhoy1967
8 Jun 2018, 08:42 AM
Gonga
7 Jun 2018, 06:34 PM
remy mcswain
7 Jun 2018, 06:19 PM
Very poor. A failure. Couldn’t win a game that mattered. Too emotional.
If you are judging solely on him failing to better a superior Rangers side that had a similar winning mentality to what we have now then fire away.

I think Tommy’s era as manager was actually quite a bright spell in amongst an inglorious decade.

We were finally bringing in some exciting names and even though the three amigos went a bit bandit on us, he had us playing some exceptional football. And it was at a time that the club was modernising under Fergus.

As we have shown this last few years, once you have a strong winning mentality at a club it’s very hard to shift.

MoN managed to do it, but was given finances unlike any Celtic manager in our history.

Tommy had us playing the kind of stuff that took out us out of the early 90’s hellhole and gave us something to look forward to again.

To say he was a failure and too emotional given who he was, his links to the club and the Hun dominated era in which he managed is a joke.
Fwiw Billy Stark who was Tommy's Assistant says when he reflects and thinks back on their time managing Celtic ultimately he feels Tommy's love and passion for Celtic did make him "too emotional" (his very words) in the job and worked against him in his dealings with Fergus (Fergus won nearly every battle* ) and especially when it came to the crucial games he thinks the players picked up on Tommy's emotional input and instead of being a positive it became a negative " desperately need to win" scenario again especially against the huns and they bottled it - He also says they lost crucial games to decisions going against them but what really costs them at the end of the day was focussing too much on the ideology of trying to "Play the Celtic Way" to the detriment of the defensive side of the game .


A quick glance through this thread and those that saw the team play through 1994-1997 generally seem to have the same take as Billy Stark - Offensively we could be great - Defensively we could be a sieve.


As to the OP Tommy was a very good Celtic player but Legendary Player is bandied about far too easily and readily - Real Legends are The Lions/McGrain's/Larsson's etc in Celtic's history.



*Anyone who ever had any dealings at all with Fergus would know he was a tough.tough wee fecker to negotiate with - In that respect only I wish he was at the helm as regards the huns finally being found out - There would be no playing around it with diplomacy he would have gone for the jugular and he would have won.
Calton I said the exact same above.

It’s easy to come on here (I’m not suggesting you are & nor myself) and claim to know stuff but I was closeish enough at the time to hearing genuine stories through a relative about what the Bunnet (who in his own right IMO is a legend for what he done for the club) was up to behind the scenes but people skills for Fergus was not part of his repertoire.

For a major club like Celtic the Bunnet stories I heard would not been out of place at London Road Primary school playground 100 yards away & his treatment of Tommy. Due to the mark of Tommy and what kind of person he was (god rest him!) and respect he had for the club it was pretty much all kept in house.

I think this definitely affected his capability at times to get players and have control other managers at the time where used to & “came with the turf” as normal managerial duties & actions in the 90's - Tommy had major hurdles to jump through for the simpliest of things at the club & managing up the way was problematic to say the least. I would argue with anyone this effected his managerial duties at the time and subsequent results he got.
Edited by littlegmbhoy, 8 Jun 2018, 08:58 AM.
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CaltonBhoy1967
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littlegmbhoy
8 Jun 2018, 08:23 AM
Lived through the early 90’s when I started to fully understand football as a 12/13/14 year old...Huns winning everything.

Tommy gave me hope again as a Celtic supporter. Huns just had to much money for whatever reason and he could not get wins nor results when it REALLY mattered.

His style of football was excellent and with the 3 amigos we had flair and panache – first time I had seen football in Scotland played in a correct fashion & it was my team doing it. Albeit huns had some cracking players they never quite seemed to play as fast and as direct as us under Tommy.

Without me being in that dressing room his message to the players was probably too emotional at times & before big games.

Don’t think his lack of relationship with the bunnet did him any favours but Billy Stark and David Hay behind him I know for a fact kept him at the club when the bunnet was at times trying to push him out.

He dealt with a lot behind the scenes that I think hurt and affected him as well at the time.
There is a lot of truth in this.

He was a broken man for a while post leaving Celtic - Fergus really made things borderline impossible for him at times - A friend got him and Rosemary over to New York and he only then began to pick up the pieces.

The leave by the side exit scenario was a ruthless disgrace by Fergus for a Celtic Man like Tommy - I am so glad Tommy bout turned and kept his pride (whilst basically telling Fergus to "do one" on that issue) and went out the Main Door.
Edited by CaltonBhoy1967, 8 Jun 2018, 08:53 AM.
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Mackin
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Every Celtic fan has their 'first team'.

Tommy Burns in 95/96 was mine. I loved that season. We were brilliant, wave after wave of attack. We would have won the league if Jim Farry hadnt cheated us, and who knows what would have happened after that. The pressure got to him in 96/97. The row with van Hooijdonk, dropping him at Ibrox, him and the rest of the team being too reliant on di Canio.

Ultimately Tommy Burns would not have stopped 10 in a row, it needed the outsider without the emotional attachment to do it.
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