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Champions League Qualifying 2018/19; 1st Round - Alashkert (ARM). Away first. 2nd Round - Valur Reykjavic (ISL) or Rosenborg (NOR). Home first.
Topic Started: 27 Feb 2018, 10:42 AM (112,716 Views)
JLZ84
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The more teams from smaller countries you bring into the champion's league the more it dilutes the quality of the games. Were we an asset to the champion's league this year? 12-1 over two games against PSG suggests not. Uefa clearly want the richest, most marketable clubs, with the best players, in the CL and we are not among them. Arguably our best striker of recent years was poached by Norwich, relegated then unceremoniously dropped for their playoff win and subsequent return to the PL. We don't have the quality in our squad to produce consistently competitive games against the biggest clubs.

Trophies are typically won through brute economic power these days, as our comfortable league wins despite uninspiring performances under Deila and this season demonstrate. We don't go around greeting when we bully the rest of the shampooe that makes up the SPL, why would any bigger club greet for us? If anything similar size clubs must envy the fact we get a guaranteed pop at the qualifying rounds each year no matter how bad we are.
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idyllwild


Bobby Peru
28 Feb 2018, 04:50 PM
It's a different tournament now. Best idea is just to let the top 32 from the main leagues play in their own competition call it the Elite league or something and have a proper champions league for everyone else (Maybe the 32 champions of countries ranked 9 to 40 or something, still have Group stages then knockouts) then have a Europa League style comp for everyone else.

Would be more enjoyable for everyone.

Rather than this halfway house that’s loaded towards rich feeder leagues, I’d prefer they just went all in on a European League. I’m comfortable that Celtic (and probably Rangers) would be able to compete within a genuine continental league setup.

The current setup, unintentionally, probably screws us over more than any other club in Europe.

We’ve got a basic infrastructure that very few teams have, if any. We’re a huge club that’s treated as a minnow (and not to make this just about us, the huns would be in the same boat).
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puroresu_boy
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green_equals_silver
28 Feb 2018, 05:32 PM
puroresu_boy
28 Feb 2018, 04:53 PM
Bobby Peru
28 Feb 2018, 04:50 PM
It's a different tournament now. Best idea is just to let the top 32 from the main leagues play in their own competition call it the Elite league or something and have a proper champions league for everyone else (Maybe the 32 champions of countries ranked 9 to 40 or something, still have Group stages then knockouts) then have a Europa League style comp for everyone else.

Would be more enjoyable for everyone.

Nobody would watch it.

A 'proper' champions league doesn't exist without the best teams in Europe.
Yet they're all seeded in a way that the biggest teams avoid each other until most likely the last 16... so why have the best teams and not make them play each other? It's garbage.
Because having 1st round group stages with the best playing the best would be silly. The seeding's in the group are actually not that bad as at least now all the top teams are not pot 1.

It's now possible to have as an example PSG and Bayern in the same group or Tottenham, Dortmund and Madrid all in the same group.

World Cup's are seeded which again is correct as nobody wants to see Brazil, Germany, Spain all playing each other in round 1.
Edited by puroresu_boy, 28 Feb 2018, 05:47 PM.
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idyllwild


puroresu_boy
28 Feb 2018, 04:53 PM
Bobby Peru
28 Feb 2018, 04:50 PM
It's a different tournament now. Best idea is just to let the top 32 from the main leagues play in their own competition call it the Elite league or something and have a proper champions league for everyone else (Maybe the 32 champions of countries ranked 9 to 40 or something, still have Group stages then knockouts) then have a Europa League style comp for everyone else.

Would be more enjoyable for everyone.

Nobody would watch it.

A 'proper' champions league doesn't exist without the best teams in Europe.
The best teams in Europe are those which compete in the CL. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy under the current setup. You’re confusing cause and effect.

The best teams are the best teams because of the setup, not because they’re “naturally” the best teams. You only need to look at how Barca, Real, Bayern etc got on in the CL prior in the years prior to its current incarnation.
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puroresu_boy
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idyllwild
28 Feb 2018, 05:52 PM
puroresu_boy
28 Feb 2018, 04:53 PM
Bobby Peru
28 Feb 2018, 04:50 PM
It's a different tournament now. Best idea is just to let the top 32 from the main leagues play in their own competition call it the Elite league or something and have a proper champions league for everyone else (Maybe the 32 champions of countries ranked 9 to 40 or something, still have Group stages then knockouts) then have a Europa League style comp for everyone else.

Would be more enjoyable for everyone.

Nobody would watch it.

A 'proper' champions league doesn't exist without the best teams in Europe.
The best teams in Europe are those which compete in the CL. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy under the current setup. You’re confusing cause and effect.

The best teams are the best teams because of the setup, not because they’re “naturally” the best teams. You only need to look at how Barca, Real, Bayern etc got on in the CL prior in the years prior to its current incarnation.
Not sure that is the case anymore.

These clubs generate so much money even without the CL that the financial gap would still be huge. They can still sign the best players and pay the top money without CL revenue as the game is different now to how it was before.

Even when Real Madrid couldn't get past the last 16 and were failures year on year until 2010 it didn't really effect there ability to sign the top players as it Real Madrid and they are forever one of the biggest clubs in the world.
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idyllwild


puroresu_boy
28 Feb 2018, 06:01 PM
idyllwild
28 Feb 2018, 05:52 PM
puroresu_boy
28 Feb 2018, 04:53 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The best teams in Europe are those which compete in the CL. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy under the current setup. You’re confusing cause and effect.

The best teams are the best teams because of the setup, not because they’re “naturally” the best teams. You only need to look at how Barca, Real, Bayern etc got on in the CL prior in the years prior to its current incarnation.
Not sure that is the case anymore.

These clubs generate so much money even without the CL that the financial gap would still be huge. They can still sign the best players and pay the top money without CL revenue as the game is different now to how it was before.

Even when Real Madrid couldn't get past the last 16 and were failures year on year until 2010 it didn't really effect there ability to sign the top players as it Real Madrid and they are forever one of the biggest clubs in the world.
I don’t disagree on the current setup. I’m saying that “the big clubs” aren’t actually a fixed permanent group. It’s largely determined by whatever the current setup happens to be.

The varying fortunes of Real Madrid and Barcelona represent this better than anyone, from 1955 until today.
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SaMule
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idyllwild
28 Feb 2018, 06:21 PM
puroresu_boy
28 Feb 2018, 06:01 PM
idyllwild
28 Feb 2018, 05:52 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Not sure that is the case anymore.

These clubs generate so much money even without the CL that the financial gap would still be huge. They can still sign the best players and pay the top money without CL revenue as the game is different now to how it was before.

Even when Real Madrid couldn't get past the last 16 and were failures year on year until 2010 it didn't really effect there ability to sign the top players as it Real Madrid and they are forever one of the biggest clubs in the world.
I don’t disagree on the current setup. I’m saying that “the big clubs” aren’t actually a fixed permanent group. It’s largely determined by whatever the current setup happens to be.

The varying fortunes of Real Madrid and Barcelona represent this better than anyone, from 1955 until today.
:thumbsup:

No-one would have said 10 years ago that Man City were a big club, or 20 years ago that Chelsea were a big club. Now they're seen as legitimate destinations for the world's best players to move to. There's still scope for other clubs to join that elite group as well if someone were to come along and pump a couple of billion into a reasonably-sized team in one of the bigger countries. The current big clubs will always happily welcome another artificially inflated club into the mix if it means that they can make more money themselves, they're not that fussed about the additional competition for the trophy that's presented at the end of the season.

I've been saying for years that at some point we'll end up with a two or three tier European setup, probably with some sort of promotion/relegation built in so that newly minted clubs can make their way into the big boy's playground at the expense of whoever can't keep up with the spending. The EL winners going directly into the CL groups is an outlier for that promotion system I guess.

Celtic will be somewhere in that setup. Not in the top tier of course, but maybe in the second or third. In theory we could use the money and exposure gained from being in that setup to attract the players that would allow us to gradually work our way to the top table, but unless we sell out to someone willing to match the daft fees that the top teams are paying now (let alone what those fees might be like in 10-20 years' time) I don't know if we'd ever really compete for the main trophy either. Essentially it's a geographically expanded version of the hoary old moving to England story where we work our way up through the leagues, except the quality of opposition would probably be strong enough to mean we'd spend most of our time in the equivalent of the Championship and celebrating the occasional promotion rather than ultimately challenging for the EPL title.
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green_equals_silver
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Bobinho9
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puroresu_boy
28 Feb 2018, 05:46 PM
green_equals_silver
28 Feb 2018, 05:32 PM
puroresu_boy
28 Feb 2018, 04:53 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Yet they're all seeded in a way that the biggest teams avoid each other until most likely the last 16... so why have the best teams and not make them play each other? It's garbage.
Because having 1st round group stages with the best playing the best would be silly. The seeding's in the group are actually not that bad as at least now all the top teams are not pot 1.

It's now possible to have as an example PSG and Bayern in the same group or Tottenham, Dortmund and Madrid all in the same group.

World Cup's are seeded which again is correct as nobody wants to see Brazil, Germany, Spain all playing each other in round 1.
Silly? In that case just do away with the group stages altogether and put the big teams in the last 16 from the word go. :cuckoo:

I don't think it'd do the competition ANY harm whatsoever if you had a group consisting of Barca, Real, Man City and Chelsea - every game a massive must win game - thats what football and being the best is about, not swiping aside the likes of us and other Pot 3 or 4 teams as a warm up for the knock out stage. Imagine the buzz if there was a group consisting of say ourselves, Copenhagen, Anderlecht and Olympiacos? We'd be genuinely looking at a really good chance of qualifying, getting a lot of points and prize money. Aye sure ratings wise it may not be great outside the countries participating but feck that, what's football without some excitement?

Same goes for the WC too quite frankly, seedings are ruining the game as a sport, doesn't even go for the tournament itself - the Euros and WC qualifiers are as good as rigged too. Its pish.
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moravcik67
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Man City and Bayern both secured their places in the group stage for next season - which tells you how much they're running away with their leagues.

Looking like we're in with a shout of being seeded all the way through qualifying. Basel (17 behind) and Copenhagen (16 behind) would now need a hell of a turnaround to win their league - although Basel do have a couple of games in hand. That leaves just Olympiakos, PSV/Ajax, Salzburg, Ludogorets and Plzen as teams who could be ranked above us. The likelihood is that the Czech champ will go straight into the group stage, which means that for us to be unseeded all of the other teams mentioned would need to first win their league and make it to the playoff. In this scenario

- The Dutch champion would likely start at the playoff round, so couldn't be eliminated before.
- Olympiakos and Salzburg would start in Round 3, and have just one match before the playoff.
- Ludogorets would start in the same roundas us, and therefore play 3 rounds to reach the playoff.

Salzburg are coasting in Austria. Ludogorets have a narrow lead over the the bastard parasite zombie club from hell CSKA-Sofia (look them up. It makes the zombie huns story seem normal). And who the hell knows what's happening in Greece. The entire league was suspended after the PAOK chairman invaded the pitch with a gun. That's the last two PAOK games that have failed to finish.
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Kingslim
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moravcik67
13 Mar 2018, 01:02 PM
Man City and Bayern both secured their places in the group stage for next season - which tells you how much they're running away with their leagues.

Looking like we're in with a shout of being seeded all the way through qualifying. Basel (17 behind) and Copenhagen (16 behind) would now need a hell of a turnaround to win their league - although Basel do have a couple of games in hand. That leaves just Olympiakos, PSV/Ajax, Salzburg, Ludogorets and Plzen as teams who could be ranked above us. The likelihood is that the Czech champ will go straight into the group stage, which means that for us to be unseeded all of the other teams mentioned would need to first win their league and make it to the playoff. In this scenario

- The Dutch champion would likely start at the playoff round, so couldn't be eliminated before.
- Olympiakos and Salzburg would start in Round 3, and have just one match before the playoff.
- Ludogorets would start in the same roundas us, and therefore play 3 rounds to reach the playoff.

Salzburg are coasting in Austria. Ludogorets have a narrow lead over the the bastard parasite zombie club from hell CSKA-Sofia (look them up. It makes the zombie huns story seem normal). And who the hell knows what's happening in Greece. The entire league was suspended after the PAOK chairman invaded the pitch with a gun. That's the last two PAOK games that have failed to finish.
:thumbsup:
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Hail!Hail!
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This nobody would watch it stuff is nonsense. Scotland, Netherlands, Poland etc. are not a USA, Hong Kong & Singapore - where club football has become more popular with imported television matches.

A Celtic, Ajax or Legia fan are not gonna watch PSG Vs Man City over their own club.
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Espanol
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Anybody know whether the greek league suspension affects our qualifying route?
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Sergeant Pluck
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Espanol
13 Mar 2018, 02:03 PM
Anybody know whether the greek league suspension affects our qualifying route?
I think the answer to your question is "no" but moravcik67's post just above is worth reading.
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moravcik67
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Espanol
13 Mar 2018, 02:03 PM
Anybody know whether the greek league suspension affects our qualifying route?
The Greek league is nuts. Pretty sure this is the 3rd of 4th time they've suspended the league in the last few years. They'll be back up and running within a couple of weeks, probably.

Assuming UEFA don't get involved and ban them all, we want anyone but Olympiakos to win the league. They're the only Greek team capable of being ranked above us. There are 2 outstanding issues that might affect things, as far as I can see.

1. The PAOK-Olympiakos game that was called off last week - after the Olympiakos manager ended up in hospital after being hit by a flying till roll.

2. Sunday's PAOK-AEK Athens game that was abandoned with minutes remaining, after the PAOK chairman went on to the pitch with a gun and took his players off to protest a (rightly) disallowed goal. The AEK players went off too, and later refused to return to the park. Incredibly the ref then awarded the match to PAOK.

The likelihood is that Olympiakos will be awarded the win for the 1st match, and PAOK will also docked points. There's a decent chance that the result of the 2nd match will be overturned, again with PAOK being penalised. This would leave PAOK trailing, with AEK and Olympiakos fighting it out for the title. But who knows with Greek football.

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ssmith81
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moravcik67
13 Mar 2018, 03:11 PM
Espanol
13 Mar 2018, 02:03 PM
Anybody know whether the greek league suspension affects our qualifying route?
The Greek league is nuts. Pretty sure this is the 3rd of 4th time they've suspended the league in the last few years. They'll be back up and running within a couple of weeks, probably.

Assuming UEFA don't get involved and ban them all, we want anyone but Olympiakos to win the league. They're the only Greek team capable of being ranked above us. There are 2 outstanding issues that might affect things, as far as I can see.

1. The PAOK-Olympiakos game that was called off last week - after the Olympiakos manager ended up in hospital after being hit by a flying till roll.

2. Sunday's PAOK-AEK Athens game that was abandoned with minutes remaining, after the PAOK chairman went on to the pitch with a gun and took his players off to protest a (rightly) disallowed goal. The AEK players went off too, and later refused to return to the park. Incredibly the ref then awarded the match to PAOK.

The likelihood is that Olympiakos will be awarded the win for the 1st match, and PAOK will also docked points. There's a decent chance that the result of the 2nd match will be overturned, again with PAOK being penalised. This would leave PAOK trailing, with AEK and Olympiakos fighting it out for the title. But who knows with Greek football.

I'm sure I read the docked points charge from the previous Olympiacos game had been overturned but no chance they'll keep the 3 points from the AEK match
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Carfin
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SaMule
1 Mar 2018, 08:56 AM
Essentially it's a geographically expanded version of the hoary old moving to England story where we work our way up through the leagues, except the quality of opposition would probably be strong enough to mean we'd spend most of our time in the equivalent of the Championship and celebrating the occasional promotion rather than ultimately challenging for the EPL title.


I’m a fud.

:ph43r:

Edited by Carfin, 13 Mar 2018, 05:22 PM.
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SaMule
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Carfin
13 Mar 2018, 04:42 PM
SaMule
1 Mar 2018, 08:56 AM
Essentially it's a geographically expanded version of the hoary old moving to England story where we work our way up through the leagues, except the quality of opposition would probably be strong enough to mean we'd spend most of our time in the equivalent of the Championship and celebrating the occasional promotion rather than ultimately challenging for the EPL title.
Aye OK.

Celtic would be promotion challengers in the English Championship? A yo-yo team?

:lmao:

We’d be comfortably mid table in the Premeir Legaue with our squad just now.

English league football, at all levels, is vastly overrated despite the money thrown at it.

Try reading the rest of the post again :thumbsup:
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Forza
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Few interesting sub-plots in this Greek thing.

This season AEK and PAOK threaten Olympiakos almost total hegemony in the Greek League. 19 titles in 21 years. This is the Olympiakos of various match fixing probes. Any season that doesn't end up with them winning the league tends to be a circus. Any season it is close? Circus.

The same happens in Portugal virtually every season when the league is tight too. I know controversy over refereeing decisions tends to happens everywhere, but in Europe it tends to be the Greek and Portuguese Leagues that go a bit mental with it.

PAOK are a Thessaloniki team, the second biggest city in the country. Mass hysteria building at the thought of PAOK being done out of a rare league title by either of the Athens teams. What is strange though is that PAOK and AEK tend to be on relatively decent terms (for Greece!). Both clubs were formed by refugees fleeing the Greek genocide.

Their owner just also happens to be a Georgian born Greek, one of the richest men in the country, who was once a member of the Russian Parliament. So his sense of entitlement is likely to be, shall we say, high. :lol:

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Carfin
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SaMule
13 Mar 2018, 05:00 PM
Try reading the rest of the post again :thumbsup:
:ffs:

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k3vkr
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Carfin
13 Mar 2018, 04:42 PM
SaMule
1 Mar 2018, 08:56 AM
Essentially it's a geographically expanded version of the hoary old moving to England story where we work our way up through the leagues, except the quality of opposition would probably be strong enough to mean we'd spend most of our time in the equivalent of the Championship and celebrating the occasional promotion rather than ultimately challenging for the EPL title.


I’m a fud.

:ph43r:

:suspect:
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