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Champions League Qualifying 2018/19; 1st Round - Alashkert (ARM). Away first. 2nd Round - Valur Reykjavic (ISL) or Rosenborg (NOR). Home first.
Topic Started: 27 Feb 2018, 10:42 AM (112,719 Views)
Martin19
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Getting on a bit
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Dannybhoy95
27 Feb 2018, 06:31 PM
GanleyBhoy95
27 Feb 2018, 02:59 PM
All non champions should be going through at least one qualifier to get into the competition.
There are over 50 countries under the UEFA banner.

That isn't even slightly workable.
Explain your working on this one.
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Jimmy_Quinn's_Hattrick
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First-team starter
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Bhoyball
27 Feb 2018, 08:03 PM
Jimmy_Quinn's_Hattrick
27 Feb 2018, 07:43 PM
If we go out in the first knockout round in 2019, we will play more European matches (14) than a team entering at the group stage will play if they reach the final (13).
Would that not be 16 ? 8 to qualify for group, 6 in group stages plus 2 in the knockout.
:thumbsup:

Also, :nono:
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Bhoyball
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No trouble with trebles.
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Jimmy_Quinn's_Hattrick
27 Feb 2018, 08:08 PM
Bhoyball
27 Feb 2018, 08:03 PM
Jimmy_Quinn's_Hattrick
27 Feb 2018, 07:43 PM
If we go out in the first knockout round in 2019, we will play more European matches (14) than a team entering at the group stage will play if they reach the final (13).
Would that not be 16 ? 8 to qualify for group, 6 in group stages plus 2 in the knockout.
:thumbsup:

Also, :nono:
23 games to win the thing lol. Nearly 2/3 of a spfl season ffs.
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Dannybhoy95
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Champions Again Olé, Olé
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Stephane_Mahe
27 Feb 2018, 07:20 PM
Why is that not workable?
55 countries.

Try and find a fair way to knock that down to the 32 participants that make up the actual Champions League tournament.
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GanleyBhoy95
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MEOW
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Dannybhoy95
27 Feb 2018, 08:14 PM
Stephane_Mahe
27 Feb 2018, 07:20 PM
Why is that not workable?
55 countries.

Try and find a fair way to knock that down to the 32 participants that make up the actual Champions League tournament.
Take 2 automatic qualifying spots off each of the big 4 leagues and let the other 51 countries play qualifiers for them, I'm sure theres some way this could be done.

The one thing that stood out for me from Moravcik67's thread on twitter about this was the fact that "Teams from the top 4 countries get 23.5pts before a ball is kicked. Scotland got 16pts in total this season." This is absolutely killing every nation outside the big 4, it's only going to get harder for any team outside the big 4 leagues to get into the competition nevermind have any chance of staying in. It also seems near impossible for any of the current top 4 countries to drop down the coefficients now? Maybe Moravcik could explain this a bit more becuase he seems very clued in on the whole sitaution :thumbsup:
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Speedy Gonzales
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Ess
27 Feb 2018, 05:45 PM
Two years failing to qualify under RD and a string of poor results have cost us dearly.
Naw. The way that Uefa and the 'big teams' have carved this up is what's cost us dearly.

Champions League? Don't make me laugh.

Quicker the whole fix fails the better.
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SaMule
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The population of Europe is around 740 million.

The population of the 'big 4' of England, Germany, Spain & Italy is around 243 million. Add France to the list and it's around 310 million.

The majority of the European population, and by loose association the support for European football clubs, isn't located in that handful of countries who are skewing the competition in their favour.

Admittedly they do have the money, and they have marketed themselves brilliantly to worldwide audiences, but at the same time there is surely some scope for the countries that have been left behind to do something about this nonsense.
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moravcik67
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Bunged a big thread up on Twitter about this earlier about what it means for Celtic, should we win the league. Here's the jist of it.

- An extra qualifying round
- One less qualifying spot in the Champions route
- The champions of the 11th/12th ranked nation now have to qualify (depending on who wins the CL)

So more and better teams playing more games for less qualifying places.

It's also a brutal schedule. We'd start on the 10th/11th July, and play 8 games over 8 successive midweeks. We played 8 games to reach the final in 1967, ffs.

If we're knocked out of the CL qualifying in the Playoff, we go straight to the Europa group stage as before. Knocked out earlier and we go into the next round of a newly created "Champions only" qualifying route in the Europa League. So in Europa qualifying, we would only face other teams knocked out of the CL qualifying. It raises the prospect of drawing the same team in both CL and EL qualifying. #letfootball win. Here's a diagram showing how it works.

Qualifying Routes for CL & EL



Think I've bored everyone with this plenty of times in the past. But the calculation of the coefficient has changed. Now only our own results matter. We no longer get 20% of the national coefficient added. This helps us, because we provide 70% of all scottish coefficient points anyway. Before the change we could find ourselves behind teams from the large countries who only featured sporadically in Europe, but were higher in the rankings just because they came from a big successful country. The downside to that is that if we manage to get ourselves in Pot 3 in the CL, we could end up with some big names below us in Pot 4 - the Milan teams, for example.

Here's how qualifying would look if the season ended today. This is based on the CL winner also qualifying directly for the group stage, meaning the Czech Champion doesn't need to qualify.

How qualifying looks now



This is probably as good as it gets for us - with Basel, Olympiakos, Ludogorets, Copenhagen, Legia and Steaua not included. But of these, only Copenhagen is so far back that they won't be able to turn it around. Here's how it could look if those teams win their league.

How qualifying could look


As you can see, it doesn't take much for us to be potentially unseeded in the playoff round. Plenty of things can change, though. So it's likely we won't know for sure where we stand until the end of the season. We might end up relying on teams being knocked out in earlier rounds.

One last thing. The draws for each round take place before the previous round has been completed. This could lead to strange ties if unseeded teams take on the coefficient of a seeded team they knock out. Can't think of a plausible method of doing it other than than, given the timescales involved.
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Genco Abbandando
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its a shambles.

Time for us to group together with other nations to form our own cross border competitions.
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jim62
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up on the roof!!

Imagine Moravcik67 and Bert Kassies in the same room ..... would sort out Brexit in five minutes :thumbsup:
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Quiet Assasin
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GanleyBhoy95
27 Feb 2018, 08:24 PM
Dannybhoy95
27 Feb 2018, 08:14 PM
Stephane_Mahe
27 Feb 2018, 07:20 PM
Why is that not workable?
55 countries.

Try and find a fair way to knock that down to the 32 participants that make up the actual Champions League tournament.
Take 2 automatic qualifying spots off each of the big 4 leagues and let the other 51 countries play qualifiers for them, I'm sure theres some way this could be done.

The one thing that stood out for me from Moravcik67's thread on twitter about this was the fact that "Teams from the top 4 countries get 23.5pts before a ball is kicked. Scotland got 16pts in total this season." This is absolutely killing every nation outside the big 4, it's only going to get harder for any team outside the big 4 leagues to get into the competition nevermind have any chance of staying in. It also seems near impossible for any of the current top 4 countries to drop down the coefficients now? Maybe Moravcik could explain this a bit more becuase he seems very clued in on the whole sitaution :thumbsup:
You get points for qualifying for the group stages and since they get that without having to kick a ball in Europe they'll get the points automatically.
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Hairytoes
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Where I really start struggling to understand why the smaller Nations put up with this rigged system, is that the big 4 get entry based on TV revenue - the small Nations end up being excluded based on TV revenue...but can't televise their own games, when the Big 4 are playing amongst themselves.

is it still a thing, that only CL games can be televised, on nights when CL games are being played?

I mean, that coupled with the set 20 odd points before even playing, is really very very underhand & I can't see why the smaller Nations stand for it.
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Stephane_Mahe
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Dannybhoy95
27 Feb 2018, 08:14 PM
Stephane_Mahe
27 Feb 2018, 07:20 PM
Why is that not workable?
55 countries.

Try and find a fair way to knock that down to the 32 participants that make up the actual Champions League tournament.
Aye, 55 countries.

England currently get 4 slots, 3 of the teams qualify automatically - put those 2 “non-champion automatic qualifiers” into the qualifying rounds at some stage and give the two automatic slots to the champions from the highest ranked countries that dont currently get an automatic slot. Do the same for every country that currently gets more than one automatic qualifier.

It’ll never happen, but I still don’t know how that’s not workable.

Edited by Stephane_Mahe, 27 Feb 2018, 09:57 PM.
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idyllwild


Dannybhoy95
27 Feb 2018, 08:14 PM
Stephane_Mahe
27 Feb 2018, 07:20 PM
Why is that not workable?
55 countries.

Try and find a fair way to knock that down to the 32 participants that make up the actual Champions League tournament.
Same as every other cup tournament setup? Have some rounds before the 32? :ponder:

If there’s 128 teams enter it, a first round takes it down to 64 and a second round takes it down to 32. Dead easy.
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randombloke
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Off treasure hunting in Holland
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SaMule
27 Feb 2018, 08:37 PM
The population of Europe is around 740 million.

The population of the 'big 4' of England, Germany, Spain & Italy is around 243 million. Add France to the list and it's around 310 million.

The majority of the European population, and by loose association the support for European football clubs, isn't located in that handful of countries who are skewing the competition in their favour.

Admittedly they do have the money, and they have marketed themselves brilliantly to worldwide audiences, but at the same time there is surely some scope for the countries that have been left behind to do something about this nonsense.
Add in Russia's 144million population to make it the "big six" and you have over 60% of the population of Europe (plus all those in the smaller countries who will pay to watch the elite)....so you can see why UEFA would want to rig the competition to ensure the big clubs from those countries are heavily represented.

The next biggest populations are Turkey (~80million), Ukraine (~42million), Poland (~39million)...but for various reasons those countries have less lucrative TV markets to exploit. There are a handful of more prosperous countries in the 10-20million population range - Belgium, Netherlands, Sweden & Portugal....but even combined those 4 won't bring in as much TV money to UEFA as one of the big six.

The likelihood is that even if a dozen of the bigger associations outside the top 6 tried to break away to form their own European competition the TV money on offer wouldn't be enough to make it worth while.


UEFA will continue to pander to the English, Spanish, German and Italian leagues that bring in the bulk of the money...and throw enough of a bone to France and Russia to keep them sweet as well. Everyone else will need to fight for the ever diminishing scraps from the table :(
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aldo
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And that's the way we like it...
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Hairytoes
27 Feb 2018, 09:45 PM
Where I really start struggling to understand why the smaller Nations put up with this rigged system, is that the big 4 get entry based on TV revenue - the small Nations end up being excluded based on TV revenue...but can't televise their own games, when the Big 4 are playing amongst themselves.

is it still a thing, that only CL games can be televised, on nights when CL games are being played?

I mean, that coupled with the set 20 odd points before even playing, is really very very underhand & I can't see why the smaller Nations stand for it.
I guess it's because nobody is really in it "for the good of the game". Self serving blazers with National Associations don't want to jeopardise their junkets to Nyon, and the bigger clubs in those small countries want a chance to get into the groups stages just for the money, regardless of the hammerings they'll take....no one really gives a eff.

In an ideal world, every Celtic side would at least try to live up to the club's proud European heritage and try to progress as far as it could. Indeed, Celtic should always try to be the best it can be, in domestic or European competition, but our CL attempts under Brendan has produced profound, demoralising defeats against financially doped superpowers we never really had a chance of competing with, and which has caused a crippling fixture schedule that has exhausted our players and, consequently, lowered the quality of our domestic game.

I really doubt if it's worth it anymore. What lingering magic that remains of those famous 'Big European Nights at Celtic Park' has been all but obliterated by demolitions at the hands of a financial freakshow like PSG and their ilk. It's not sport, it's not competition; just a money spinning scam for members of a rich, powerful, elite club of UEFA officials, English/Spanish/Italian/German/French leagues, and sundry media. This 'for the good of the game' mantra (I know it FIFA's but UEFA punt that kind of pish too) has never rung more hollow. Let those financially doped, Harlem Globetrotter, Galatico-freakshow muthaphuckas have their own fantasy league, with £1bn prize money, their own PPV TV channel at £50 per game, broadcast at 3.30 on a Tuesday morning for the far eastern market; no relegation and they end up eating themselves. And let the clubs who live within their means have a Champions League of League Champions.

There's no romance in this anymore. It's pretty sh ite, really.
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tinytim81
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Dannybhoy95
27 Feb 2018, 08:14 PM
Stephane_Mahe
27 Feb 2018, 07:20 PM
Why is that not workable?
55 countries.

Try and find a fair way to knock that down to the 32 participants that make up the actual Champions League tournament.
Why does it matter if it's fair?
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Dannybhoy95
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Champions Again Olé, Olé
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idyllwild
27 Feb 2018, 09:57 PM
Same as every other cup tournament setup? Have some rounds before the 32? :ponder:

If there’s 128 teams enter it, a first round takes it down to 64 and a second round takes it down to 32. Dead easy.
Ok. We've got the 55 Champions. Where we pulling the other 73 teams from?
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Dannybhoy95
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Champions Again Olé, Olé
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tinytim81
27 Feb 2018, 11:04 PM
Why does it matter if it's fair?
Because the current set up isn't fair.
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Dubz
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Dannybhoy95
27 Feb 2018, 11:13 PM
idyllwild
27 Feb 2018, 09:57 PM
Same as every other cup tournament setup? Have some rounds before the 32? :ponder:

If there’s 128 teams enter it, a first round takes it down to 64 and a second round takes it down to 32. Dead easy.
Ok. We've got the 55 Champions. Where we pulling the other 73 teams from?
1st two from each league, 1st 3 from the big 4. 114 teams.
14 get a bye, 1st round of 100, 2nd round of 64.

Nae seeds.
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