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Supporters/Green Brigade Thread; OBFA Act Repealed
Topic Started: 15 Aug 2017, 01:23 PM (325,636 Views)
Oscar Strummer
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The Artist Formerly Known As lubomir25
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Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 02:28 PM
The claims seem to be that the law was designed to target Celtic fans , even things out or drag them into someonelse's problem.
None of these opinions are backed up by the hard statistical fact that almost twice as many rangers fans have been arrested under this law.

Do you have the statistics for arrests ?

Previously you quoted the statistics for charges.

And do you have the statistics for convictions ?

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fatboab
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Just before the Dawn

Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 02:28 PM
The claims seem to be that the law was designed to target Celtic fans , even things out or drag them into someonelse's problem.
None of these opinions are backed up by the hard statistical fact that almost twice as many rangers fans have been arrested under this law.
are you wilfully missing the entire feckin' point of the debate, or are you genuinely that stupid? The laws that existed before OBFA would have seen all of those Rangers supporters arrested. OBFA allowed Celtic supporters to be criminalised for behaviour that previously wasn't deemed criminal. Your figures highlight that perfectly, and the Government of Scotland got their "balance".
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stevie21
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Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 02:28 PM
The claims seem to be that the law was designed to target Celtic fans , even things out or drag them into someonelse's problem.
None of these opinions are backed up by the hard statistical fact that almost twice as many rangers fans have been arrested under this law.
Not trying to get into the debate, but I like the implication that a "hard statistical fact" is somehow more accurate than a "fact" :lol:
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littlegmbhoy
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Club Captain
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http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/16099111.kilted-rugby-fans-play-the-sash-on-bagpipes-at-scotlands-six-nations-clash-in-rome/?ref=mr&lp=2

Thought secterianism was football fans only.... led to believe quite literally on every comment/news/radio report it was just nasty Celtic & Rangers (old and new one) fans who song songs like these.

Lets forget scottish society, orange order. where the real issue's are and blame two football teams and their fans.....thank god the act is deid.
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Martin19
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Getting on a bit
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fatboab
20 Mar 2018, 02:34 PM
Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 02:28 PM
The claims seem to be that the law was designed to target Celtic fans , even things out or drag them into someonelse's problem.
None of these opinions are backed up by the hard statistical fact that almost twice as many rangers fans have been arrested under this law.
are you wilfully missing the entire feckin' point of the debate, or are you genuinely that stupid? The laws that existed before OBFA would have seen all of those Rangers supporters arrested. OBFA allowed Celtic supporters to be criminalised for behaviour that previously wasn't deemed criminal. Your figures highlight that perfectly, and the Government of Scotland got their "balance".
I mean there is a link on the previous page to the discussion around the bill, including a page number with the quote "We need to even things up" (basically) .

I don't really know what else he is looking for? :suspect:
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pedrok
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Considering retirement
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Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 02:28 PM
The claims seem to be that the law was designed to target Celtic fans , even things out or drag them into someonelse's problem.
None of these opinions are backed up by the hard statistical fact that almost twice as many rangers fans have been arrested under this law.
For years we have been told that 'both sides are as bad as each other', but that has never been the case. Arrests and convictions for religious sectarianism were always heavily slanted in one direction, it showed that it was never the case that 'both sides are as bad as each other'.

And so, this Act was introduced to, in the words of Justice Committee Convenor and SNP MSP, Christine Graham, 'even things up'.

It was a farce from the start.
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ants67
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pedrok
20 Mar 2018, 02:59 PM
Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 02:28 PM
The claims seem to be that the law was designed to target Celtic fans , even things out or drag them into someonelse's problem.
None of these opinions are backed up by the hard statistical fact that almost twice as many rangers fans have been arrested under this law.
For years we have been told that 'both sides are as bad as each other', but that has never been the case. Arrests and convictions for religious sectarianism were always heavily slanted in one direction, it showed that it was never the case that 'both sides are as bad as each other'.

And so, this Act was introduced to, in the words of Justice Committee Convenor and SNP MSP, Christine Graham, 'even things up'.

It was a farce from the start.
:thumbsup: and that is the truth in a nutshell.
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Forza
Considering retirement
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Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 02:28 PM
The claims seem to be that the law was designed to target Celtic fans , even things out or drag them into someonelse's problem.
None of these opinions are backed up by the hard statistical fact that almost twice as many rangers fans have been arrested under this law.
Why is it surprising to you that Rangers fans end up being convicted at a higher rate? The law may have been a shambles, but their appalling behaviour, sectarian or otherwise, is long established.

This includes the "gallant" Hampden 2016 pitch invaders, who went on to defend innocent women, children and disabled people. They could and should have been done under other legislation, but they were all done under the shambling Football Act. That's one large scale event accounting for many more convictions. I can't remember any comparable large scale on pitch fisticuffs, which involved dozens if not hundreds of their fans, that was associated with Celtic fans during the time the Act was operational?

Data collected on convictions under the Criminal Justice Act 2003 indicated that generally Catholics were six times more likely to have had an offence committed against them than Protestants, but that only 15% of offences happened at football matches.

That suggests the main problem in Scotland (which is STILL the main problem), demonstrated clearly prior to the new tone of "offensiveness" adopted in the new 2012 Act, tended to show offences were heavily skewed towards anti-Catholicism in Scottish society. And we all know one of the more regularly occurring manifestations of that in the west of Scotland.

Edited by Forza, 20 Mar 2018, 03:27 PM.
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pablo5
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Whatever it is, there's not enough of it
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Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 02:28 PM
The claims seem to be that the law was designed to target Celtic fans , even things out or drag them into someonelse's problem.
None of these opinions are backed up by the hard statistical fact that almost twice as many rangers fans have been arrested under this law.
Your point isn't proven by that fact either.
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Stockholm87
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stevie21
20 Mar 2018, 02:38 PM
Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 02:28 PM
The claims seem to be that the law was designed to target Celtic fans , even things out or drag them into someonelse's problem.
None of these opinions are backed up by the hard statistical fact that almost twice as many rangers fans have been arrested under this law.
Not trying to get into the debate, but I like the implication that a "hard statistical fact" is somehow more accurate than a "fact" :lol:
Given modern usage of - "FACT" - it is indeed more accurate. Precisely the distinction I was trying to make. :thumbsup:


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Stockholm87
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Seems as though hard stats are more offensive than anything the act was trying to get at
Just to address some of the issues thrown at me know.

"My point isn't proven by that fact" - Those stats were my point , so that makes no sense. I make no other claims.
I've been called stupid for stating stats. Ponder that.
It is now apparently an undeniable "fact" the law was designed to " even things up". This is not unequivocal even when reading the link above. It is opinion.
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ceannaboe
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littlegmbhoy
20 Mar 2018, 02:39 PM
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/16099111.kilted-rugby-fans-play-the-sash-on-bagpipes-at-scotlands-six-nations-clash-in-rome/?ref=mr&lp=2

Thought secterianism was football fans only.... led to believe quite literally on every comment/news/radio report it was just nasty Celtic & Rangers (old and new one) fans who song songs like these.

Lets forget scottish society, orange order. where the real issue's are and blame two football teams and their fans.....thank god the act is deid.
SNP summit imminent













oh no wait, sweep sweep time
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idyllwild


Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 03:36 PM
Seems as though hard stats are more offensive than anything the act was trying to get at
Just to address some of the issues thrown at me know.

"My point isn't proven by that fact" - Those stats were my point , so that makes no sense. I make no other claims.
I've been called stupid for stating stats. Ponder that.
It is now apparently an undeniable "fact" the law was designed to " even things up". This is not unequivocal even when reading the link above. It is opinion.
You’ve weren’t called stupid.

That’s a fact.
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Martin19
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Getting on a bit
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Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 03:36 PM
Seems as though hard stats are more offensive than anything the act was trying to get at
Just to address some of the issues thrown at me know.

"My point isn't proven by that fact" - Those stats were my point , so that makes no sense. I make no other claims.
I've been called stupid for stating stats. Ponder that.
It is now apparently an undeniable "fact" the law was designed to " even things up". This is not unequivocal even when reading the link above. It is opinion.
Actually what you would need to do is find out the number of arrests before the bill was introduced then compare and contrast :thumbsup:
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Stockholm87
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idyllwild
20 Mar 2018, 03:58 PM
Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 03:36 PM
Seems as though hard stats are more offensive than anything the act was trying to get at
Just to address some of the issues thrown at me know.

"My point isn't proven by that fact" - Those stats were my point , so that makes no sense. I make no other claims.
I've been called stupid for stating stats. Ponder that.
It is now apparently an undeniable "fact" the law was designed to " even things up". This is not unequivocal even when reading the link above. It is opinion.
You’ve weren’t called stupid.

That’s a fact.
It was a good impersonation then :thumbsup:
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Stockholm87
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Martin19
20 Mar 2018, 04:08 PM
Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 03:36 PM
Seems as though hard stats are more offensive than anything the act was trying to get at
Just to address some of the issues thrown at me know.

"My point isn't proven by that fact" - Those stats were my point , so that makes no sense. I make no other claims.
I've been called stupid for stating stats. Ponder that.
It is now apparently an undeniable "fact" the law was designed to " even things up". This is not unequivocal even when reading the link above. It is opinion.
Actually what you would need to do is find out the number of arrests before the bill was introduced then compare and contrast :thumbsup:
you're a man after my own heart. I'm all for statistical evidence. :thumbsup:
But in any case I don't think that comparison works. What you would have to show is that the Rangers fans would have been charged anyway and the Celtic fans not hence this act 'evened things up'. That would require a laborious subjective case by case analysis.

My take :
The act was well intentioned but poorly formed .
That it was designed specifically to target Celtic fans? - No.
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Forza
Considering retirement
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Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 03:36 PM
Seems as though hard stats are more offensive than anything the act was trying to get at
Just to address some of the issues thrown at me know.

"My point isn't proven by that fact" - Those stats were my point , so that makes no sense. I make no other claims.
I've been called stupid for stating stats. Ponder that.
It is now apparently an undeniable "fact" the law was designed to " even things up". This is not unequivocal even when reading the link above. It is opinion.
60 of the 383 total "Rangers" convictions (16%) happened on one day, the 2016 Scottish Cup Final. They could not take getting pumped courtesy of a last minute goal and the ensuing Hibs fans' pitch invasion. Diddums.

So you are down to 323 right away.

In 2016-17 religious hatred accounted for 58 offences, with Catholicism the target in 44 cases (75%). No explanation is really needed on the club followers responsible for swelling this total and skewing it compared to any other religious denomination.

I am suggesting to you that regardless of the validity of the law in place to "police" football fans, one support has statistically proved over decades that they will incur more convictions than others, simply because of their propensity to commit more offences than others.

That should be self evident through decades of observing how Rangers and Sevco fans operate.


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Stockholm87
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Forza
20 Mar 2018, 04:24 PM
Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 03:36 PM
Seems as though hard stats are more offensive than anything the act was trying to get at
Just to address some of the issues thrown at me know.

"My point isn't proven by that fact" - Those stats were my point , so that makes no sense. I make no other claims.
I've been called stupid for stating stats. Ponder that.
It is now apparently an undeniable "fact" the law was designed to " even things up". This is not unequivocal even when reading the link above. It is opinion.
60 of the 383 total "Rangers" convictions (16%) happened on one day, the 2016 Scottish Cup Final. They could not take getting pumped courtesy of a last minute goal and the ensuing Hibs fans' pitch invasion. Diddums.

So you are down to 323 right away.

In 2016-17 religious hatred accounted for 58 offences, with Catholicism the target in 44 cases (75%). No explanation is really needed on the club followers responsible for swelling this total and skewing it compared to any other religious denomination.

I am suggesting to you that regardless of the validity of the law in place to "police" football fans, one support has statistically proved over decades that they will incur more convictions than others, simply because of their propensity to commit more offences than others.

That should be self evident through decades of observing how Rangers and Sevco fans operate.


1) even allowing for arbitrarily removing 60 cases they have far more arrests
2) no one on here is disagreeing with you that Rangers have the worst sectarian support.
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Forza
Considering retirement
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Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 04:35 PM
Forza
20 Mar 2018, 04:24 PM
Stockholm87
20 Mar 2018, 03:36 PM
Seems as though hard stats are more offensive than anything the act was trying to get at
Just to address some of the issues thrown at me know.

"My point isn't proven by that fact" - Those stats were my point , so that makes no sense. I make no other claims.
I've been called stupid for stating stats. Ponder that.
It is now apparently an undeniable "fact" the law was designed to " even things up". This is not unequivocal even when reading the link above. It is opinion.
60 of the 383 total "Rangers" convictions (16%) happened on one day, the 2016 Scottish Cup Final. They could not take getting pumped courtesy of a last minute goal and the ensuing Hibs fans' pitch invasion. Diddums.

So you are down to 323 right away.

In 2016-17 religious hatred accounted for 58 offences, with Catholicism the target in 44 cases (75%). No explanation is really needed on the club followers responsible for swelling this total and skewing it compared to any other religious denomination.

I am suggesting to you that regardless of the validity of the law in place to "police" football fans, one support has statistically proved over decades that they will incur more convictions than others, simply because of their propensity to commit more offences than others.

That should be self evident through decades of observing how Rangers and Sevco fans operate.


1) even allowing for arbitrarily removing 60 cases they have far more arrests
2) no one on here is disagreeing with you that Rangers have the worst sectarian support.
The spike in data caused by events at the 2016 Scottish Cup Final is mentioned a good dozen times in the Government's own analysis of the 2016-17 figures. It is not arbitrary in the slightest. It accounts for almost 1 in 8 of every Rangers/Sevco fan convicted under the Act.

What might be more instructive is an analysis of the charges thrown out, broken down by supporters of each club.
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pablo5
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Whatever it is, there's not enough of it
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Your figures combine people who'd have been done under pre-existing legislation with the ones who were criminalised by OBFA.

They don't solely prove the result of OBFA or the intent behind it.

Surely the minuted remarks of the politicians involved prove the intent?
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