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Supporters/Green Brigade Thread; OBFA Act Repealed
Topic Started: 15 Aug 2017, 01:23 PM (325,659 Views)
Stockholm87
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Ponder Stibbons
9 Jan 2018, 02:11 PM
Stockholm87
9 Jan 2018, 01:39 PM
I always find the argument that" existing legislation was enough" a little strange since the problem went ignored and unchallenged for decades. By all means repeal the act if it is poorly drafted but if that is the only thing that is done then the worry is that this will be seen as a green light that 'billy boys' (and stupid IRA stuff) etc is ok again.
Re the stupid IRA stuff; how does that differ from the intelligent IRA stuff? You got a list of songs which are stupid and another, not-so-stupid list?
I have no list , but unless it is your claim that there are no stupid IRA songs we have no disagreement.
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Ponder Stibbons
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I find it strange that one ever seems to know exactly which songs are stupid, or sectarian, or offensive
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Stockholm87
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Ponder Stibbons
9 Jan 2018, 03:48 PM
I find it strange that one ever seems to know exactly which songs are stupid, or sectarian, or offensive
not keeping a list of them does not mean not knowing which ones are stupid when you hear them. I don't have a list of sevco tunes either but I'm pretty sure I know which are offensive when I hear them
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Ponder Stibbons
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Someone was asking about access to training in Dubai. Seeing as how the Dubai thread is locked (just as it was getting interesting), I'll put this here...

Confirmation that @CelticFC will have an open session on Friday at 10am for fans in Dubai, can fans please restrict visits to Al Wassl to this time only please 🍀🐪
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Mackin
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The Ginty McGinty genius
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Stockholm87
9 Jan 2018, 03:54 PM
Ponder Stibbons
9 Jan 2018, 03:48 PM
I find it strange that one ever seems to know exactly which songs are stupid, or sectarian, or offensive
not keeping a list of them does not mean not knowing which ones are stupid when you hear them. I don't have a list of sevco tunes either but I'm pretty sure I know which are offensive when I hear them
Knowing that something is stupid and/or offensive is entirely different to accepting that something should be illegal, and only illegal in one specific context.

But you, presumably, already knew that.
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justinjest
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Mackin
9 Jan 2018, 05:57 PM
Stockholm87
9 Jan 2018, 03:54 PM
Ponder Stibbons
9 Jan 2018, 03:48 PM
I find it strange that one ever seems to know exactly which songs are stupid, or sectarian, or offensive
not keeping a list of them does not mean not knowing which ones are stupid when you hear them. I don't have a list of sevco tunes either but I'm pretty sure I know which are offensive when I hear them
Knowing that something is stupid and/or offensive is entirely different to accepting that something should be illegal, and only illegal in one specific context.

But you, presumably, already knew that.
what is really stupid is that singing certain songs, e.g. Roll of Honour, is breaking the law if you sing it on your way to, at, or on your way back from a football match, but it is not not deemed to be breaking the law if you sing it at a demonstration against the act (as happened outside Holyrood).
How can anyone try to justify a law that makes something offensive only if it is sung when attending a football match, but not offensive any other time? Surely it is either offensive or it isn't? If it offends other football fans, then surely it will offend other people when sung away from a football match?
I assume this is one of the stupid IRA songs you refer to, but is it only stupid if sung at the match or is it always stupid?
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mick405
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Get to the chopper!!
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screwtop
9 Jan 2018, 03:38 PM
obi wan wanyama
9 Jan 2018, 02:56 PM
Received the same Tory reply from Annie Wells as the poster above.

Johann Lamont's reply below.

Thank you for your email regarding the repeal of the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act.

I have previously campaigned for the repeal of this legislation, which I believe has targeted and criminalised football fans and seriously damaged the relationship between police and fans without tackling the root causes of sectarianism.

I am a long term supporter of James Kelly’s effort to repeal this legislation and I will vote in favour of repeal when it comes before parliament.

I want to tackle sectarianism through education and prevention, working with anti-sectarianism charities, churches, football authorities and fans to develop positive measures to stamp out sectarianism in Scotland. Across the political spectrum, there is agreement that sectarianism cannot be tolerated anywhere in Scotland - on or off the pitch, in our communities, schools or workplaces. This generation can be the one that stamps out sectarianism for good but there needs to be trust between the authorities and football fans and a renewed push towards tackling sectarianism in classrooms and communities.

I hope this response has been helpful.

Regards,

Johann Lamont MSP (Glasgow Region)
Sectarianism within our schools? Really?
Shut down the non-catholic ones.
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Gothamcelt
Retired and now a BT Sports pundit
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mick405
9 Jan 2018, 07:22 PM
screwtop
9 Jan 2018, 03:38 PM
obi wan wanyama
9 Jan 2018, 02:56 PM
Received the same Tory reply from Annie Wells as the poster above.

Johann Lamont's reply below.

Thank you for your email regarding the repeal of the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act.

I have previously campaigned for the repeal of this legislation, which I believe has targeted and criminalised football fans and seriously damaged the relationship between police and fans without tackling the root causes of sectarianism.

I am a long term supporter of James Kelly’s effort to repeal this legislation and I will vote in favour of repeal when it comes before parliament.

I want to tackle sectarianism through education and prevention, working with anti-sectarianism charities, churches, football authorities and fans to develop positive measures to stamp out sectarianism in Scotland. Across the political spectrum, there is agreement that sectarianism cannot be tolerated anywhere in Scotland - on or off the pitch, in our communities, schools or workplaces. This generation can be the one that stamps out sectarianism for good but there needs to be trust between the authorities and football fans and a renewed push towards tackling sectarianism in classrooms and communities.

I hope this response has been helpful.

Regards,

Johann Lamont MSP (Glasgow Region)
Sectarianism within our schools? Really?
Shut down the non-catholic ones.
She says "Across the political spectrum, there is agreement that sectarianism cannot be tolerated anywhere in Scotland - on or off the pitch, in our communities, schools or workplaces".

I don't see anything wrong with this comment. Certainly don't see it as advising that Catholic schools should be closed.
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mick405
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Get to the chopper!!
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Gothamcelt
9 Jan 2018, 08:35 PM
mick405
9 Jan 2018, 07:22 PM
screwtop
9 Jan 2018, 03:38 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Shut down the non-catholic ones.
She says "Across the political spectrum, there is agreement that sectarianism cannot be tolerated anywhere in Scotland - on or off the pitch, in our communities, schools or workplaces".

I don't see anything wrong with this comment. Certainly don't see it as advising that Catholic schools should be closed.
I'd certainly hope not. Where else are we supposed to get the next generation of good Celtic supporters?
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Quiet Assasin
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mick405
9 Jan 2018, 08:40 PM
Gothamcelt
9 Jan 2018, 08:35 PM
mick405
9 Jan 2018, 07:22 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
She says "Across the political spectrum, there is agreement that sectarianism cannot be tolerated anywhere in Scotland - on or off the pitch, in our communities, schools or workplaces".

I don't see anything wrong with this comment. Certainly don't see it as advising that Catholic schools should be closed.
I'd certainly hope not. Where else are we supposed to get the next generation of good Celtic supporters?
Junior Orange lodge?
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okayibelieveyou
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Richard Leonard responded to me. Strong words on it. Decent response.

"Thank you for getting in touch with me regarding James Kelly MSP’s proposal to repeal the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012.

I will be voting for the repeal of this unnecessary piece of legislation.

I welcome your support and enthusiasm and agree completely with your analysis of the Act. Not only is the legislation illiberal, it fails to properly tackle sectarianism, and creates tension between police and fans. It further duplicates powers the Police already have to deal with inappropriate behaviour at football games and abuse online. The Law Society has established that all prosecutions brought forward in 2016-17 could have been captured by pre-existing legislation and that those committing religiously aggravated abuse can be prosecuted under section 74 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003 in relation to religious aggravation. Furthermore as representations from Police Scotland have stated, more often than not, cases of threatening communications have been prosecuted using section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 rather than section 6 of the Football Act.

The Football Act is the first ever piece of legislation to be passed without cross-party support, rushed through by the SNP Government using its majority in the last Parliament. The legislation has been widely condemned, by human rights groups, legal experts and fans organisations.

The right place to be combating bigotry is in classrooms, not targeting football fans on terraces or supporting their team. The Scottish Government needs to invest in anti-sectarian initiatives and do more through education.

Thank you again for your support, and I look forward to the day this illiberal and toxic piece of legislation can be struck from the statute books.

Yours sincerely



Richard Leonard
MSP for Central Scotland
Leader – Scottish Labour Party"
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stevie21
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Poster of the Tuesday afternoon!
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screwtop
9 Jan 2018, 03:38 PM
obi wan wanyama
9 Jan 2018, 02:56 PM
Received the same Tory reply from Annie Wells as the poster above.

Johann Lamont's reply below.

Thank you for your email regarding the repeal of the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act.

I have previously campaigned for the repeal of this legislation, which I believe has targeted and criminalised football fans and seriously damaged the relationship between police and fans without tackling the root causes of sectarianism.

I am a long term supporter of James Kelly’s effort to repeal this legislation and I will vote in favour of repeal when it comes before parliament.

I want to tackle sectarianism through education and prevention, working with anti-sectarianism charities, churches, football authorities and fans to develop positive measures to stamp out sectarianism in Scotland. Across the political spectrum, there is agreement that sectarianism cannot be tolerated anywhere in Scotland - on or off the pitch, in our communities, schools or workplaces. This generation can be the one that stamps out sectarianism for good but there needs to be trust between the authorities and football fans and a renewed push towards tackling sectarianism in classrooms and communities.

I hope this response has been helpful.

Regards,

Johann Lamont MSP (Glasgow Region)
Sectarianism within our schools? Really?
Basically sounds like "sectarianism won't be tolerated from anyone, be they young (school) or old (workplace)"
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justinjest
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stevie21
9 Jan 2018, 09:01 PM
screwtop
9 Jan 2018, 03:38 PM
obi wan wanyama
9 Jan 2018, 02:56 PM
Received the same Tory reply from Annie Wells as the poster above.

Johann Lamont's reply below.

Thank you for your email regarding the repeal of the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act.

I have previously campaigned for the repeal of this legislation, which I believe has targeted and criminalised football fans and seriously damaged the relationship between police and fans without tackling the root causes of sectarianism.

I am a long term supporter of James Kelly’s effort to repeal this legislation and I will vote in favour of repeal when it comes before parliament.

I want to tackle sectarianism through education and prevention, working with anti-sectarianism charities, churches, football authorities and fans to develop positive measures to stamp out sectarianism in Scotland. Across the political spectrum, there is agreement that sectarianism cannot be tolerated anywhere in Scotland - on or off the pitch, in our communities, schools or workplaces. This generation can be the one that stamps out sectarianism for good but there needs to be trust between the authorities and football fans and a renewed push towards tackling sectarianism in classrooms and communities.

I hope this response has been helpful.

Regards,

Johann Lamont MSP (Glasgow Region)
Sectarianism within our schools? Really?
Basically sounds like "sectarianism won't be tolerated from anyone, be they young (school) or old (workplace)"
I read it as we should be tackling sectarianism by education in the classrooms and communities, not that it is there just now
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Stockholm87
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justinjest
9 Jan 2018, 07:13 PM
Mackin
9 Jan 2018, 05:57 PM
Stockholm87
9 Jan 2018, 03:54 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Knowing that something is stupid and/or offensive is entirely different to accepting that something should be illegal, and only illegal in one specific context.

But you, presumably, already knew that.
what is really stupid is that singing certain songs, e.g. Roll of Honour, is breaking the law if you sing it on your way to, at, or on your way back from a football match, but it is not not deemed to be breaking the law if you sing it at a demonstration against the act (as happened outside Holyrood).
How can anyone try to justify a law that makes something offensive only if it is sung when attending a football match, but not offensive any other time? Surely it is either offensive or it isn't? If it offends other football fans, then surely it will offend other people when sung away from a football match?
I assume this is one of the stupid IRA songs you refer to, but is it only stupid if sung at the match or is it always stupid?
You illustrate my original point which was not about particular songs but the claim that there were existing laws anyway.
On the one hand it shouldn't be illegal but at the same time there were already laws making it illegal.
It's this ‘ broken kettle logic' I was getting at.
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Jim Shortz
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First-team starter
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Ponder Stibbons
9 Jan 2018, 05:28 PM
Seeing as how the Dubai thread is locked (just as it was getting interesting)
One of the more annoying aspects about kds.
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Harry Hewitt
I'm new. Be gentle.
justinjest
9 Jan 2018, 11:34 PM
stevie21
9 Jan 2018, 09:01 PM
screwtop
9 Jan 2018, 03:38 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Basically sounds like "sectarianism won't be tolerated from anyone, be they young (school) or old (workplace)"
I read it as we should be tackling sectarianism by education in the classrooms and communities, not that it is there just now
As a teacher of English in Glasgow for most of her adult life, I think ms Lamont knew exactly what she was saying.
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tenerifetim
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Considering retirement
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I've had 2 very quick responses :-

Reply from Ken Mcintosh MSP - as Presiding officer he hs to stay neutral in debate
Spoiler: click to toggle


Response from Maurice Golden in support of repeal of act.

Spoiler: click to toggle
Edited by tenerifetim, 10 Jan 2018, 08:15 AM.
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smudgethecat
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okayibelieveyou
9 Jan 2018, 08:54 PM
Richard Leonard responded to me. Strong words on it. Decent response.

"Thank you for getting in touch with me regarding James Kelly MSP’s proposal to repeal the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012.

I will be voting for the repeal of this unnecessary piece of legislation.

I welcome your support and enthusiasm and agree completely with your analysis of the Act. Not only is the legislation illiberal, it fails to properly tackle sectarianism, and creates tension between police and fans. It further duplicates powers the Police already have to deal with inappropriate behaviour at football games and abuse online. The Law Society has established that all prosecutions brought forward in 2016-17 could have been captured by pre-existing legislation and that those committing religiously aggravated abuse can be prosecuted under section 74 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003 in relation to religious aggravation. Furthermore as representations from Police Scotland have stated, more often than not, cases of threatening communications have been prosecuted using section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 rather than section 6 of the Football Act.

The Football Act is the first ever piece of legislation to be passed without cross-party support, rushed through by the SNP Government using its majority in the last Parliament. The legislation has been widely condemned, by human rights groups, legal experts and fans organisations.

The right place to be combating bigotry is in classrooms, not targeting football fans on terraces or supporting their team. The Scottish Government needs to invest in anti-sectarian initiatives and do more through education.

Thank you again for your support, and I look forward to the day this illiberal and toxic piece of legislation can be struck from the statute books.

Yours sincerely



Richard Leonard
MSP for Central Scotland
Leader – Scottish Labour Party"
"illiberal and toxic". Listen to Che Guevara. Probably vote to lock up football fans in cages next year
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Owenybhoy
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A Devil In God's Country
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justinjest
9 Jan 2018, 07:13 PM
Mackin
9 Jan 2018, 05:57 PM
Stockholm87
9 Jan 2018, 03:54 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Knowing that something is stupid and/or offensive is entirely different to accepting that something should be illegal, and only illegal in one specific context.

But you, presumably, already knew that.
what is really stupid is that singing certain songs, e.g. Roll of Honour, is breaking the law if you sing it on your way to, at, or on your way back from a football match, but it is not not deemed to be breaking the law if you sing it at a demonstration against the act (as happened outside Holyrood).
How can anyone try to justify a law that makes something offensive only if it is sung when attending a football match, but not offensive any other time? Surely it is either offensive or it isn't? If it offends other football fans, then surely it will offend other people when sung away from a football match?
I assume this is one of the stupid IRA songs you refer to, but is it only stupid if sung at the match or is it always stupid?
Maybe when singing these songs, you should hold up a 'Parental Advisory' poster, just so the kids don't get offended, while legally you are informing those who may hear and therefore the police have no comeback on you. ;)
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mac_bhoy
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Until The Last Rebel
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FAC
@FACKilltheBill
The automated email system is now up and running again so please start emailing your MSPs and get your ma, your da, your granny and your alsation dug on it too!

https://www.celtictrust.net/index.php?func=d_home_msps


It is very important we all do this and keep the pressure on them until it is scrapped, all you have to do is click on the link put in your postcode and then select what MSP you want to send it to and as the template is already set up it literally takes two minutes

:thumbsup:
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