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Supporters/Green Brigade Thread; OBFA Act Repealed
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Topic Started: 15 Aug 2017, 01:23 PM (325,659 Views)
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Stockholm87
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9 Jan 2018, 03:45 PM
Post #2821
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- Ponder Stibbons
- 9 Jan 2018, 02:11 PM
- Stockholm87
- 9 Jan 2018, 01:39 PM
I always find the argument that" existing legislation was enough" a little strange since the problem went ignored and unchallenged for decades. By all means repeal the act if it is poorly drafted but if that is the only thing that is done then the worry is that this will be seen as a green light that 'billy boys' (and stupid IRA stuff) etc is ok again.
Re the stupid IRA stuff; how does that differ from the intelligent IRA stuff? You got a list of songs which are stupid and another, not-so-stupid list? I have no list , but unless it is your claim that there are no stupid IRA songs we have no disagreement.
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Ponder Stibbons
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9 Jan 2018, 03:48 PM
Post #2822
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I find it strange that one ever seems to know exactly which songs are stupid, or sectarian, or offensive
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Stockholm87
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9 Jan 2018, 03:54 PM
Post #2823
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- Ponder Stibbons
- 9 Jan 2018, 03:48 PM
I find it strange that one ever seems to know exactly which songs are stupid, or sectarian, or offensive not keeping a list of them does not mean not knowing which ones are stupid when you hear them. I don't have a list of sevco tunes either but I'm pretty sure I know which are offensive when I hear them
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Ponder Stibbons
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9 Jan 2018, 05:28 PM
Post #2824
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Someone was asking about access to training in Dubai. Seeing as how the Dubai thread is locked (just as it was getting interesting), I'll put this here...
Confirmation that @CelticFC will have an open session on Friday at 10am for fans in Dubai, can fans please restrict visits to Al Wassl to this time only please 🍀🐪
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Mackin
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9 Jan 2018, 05:57 PM
Post #2825
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- Stockholm87
- 9 Jan 2018, 03:54 PM
- Ponder Stibbons
- 9 Jan 2018, 03:48 PM
I find it strange that one ever seems to know exactly which songs are stupid, or sectarian, or offensive
not keeping a list of them does not mean not knowing which ones are stupid when you hear them. I don't have a list of sevco tunes either but I'm pretty sure I know which are offensive when I hear them Knowing that something is stupid and/or offensive is entirely different to accepting that something should be illegal, and only illegal in one specific context.
But you, presumably, already knew that.
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justinjest
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9 Jan 2018, 07:13 PM
Post #2826
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- Mackin
- 9 Jan 2018, 05:57 PM
- Stockholm87
- 9 Jan 2018, 03:54 PM
- Ponder Stibbons
- 9 Jan 2018, 03:48 PM
I find it strange that one ever seems to know exactly which songs are stupid, or sectarian, or offensive
not keeping a list of them does not mean not knowing which ones are stupid when you hear them. I don't have a list of sevco tunes either but I'm pretty sure I know which are offensive when I hear them
Knowing that something is stupid and/or offensive is entirely different to accepting that something should be illegal, and only illegal in one specific context. But you, presumably, already knew that. what is really stupid is that singing certain songs, e.g. Roll of Honour, is breaking the law if you sing it on your way to, at, or on your way back from a football match, but it is not not deemed to be breaking the law if you sing it at a demonstration against the act (as happened outside Holyrood). How can anyone try to justify a law that makes something offensive only if it is sung when attending a football match, but not offensive any other time? Surely it is either offensive or it isn't? If it offends other football fans, then surely it will offend other people when sung away from a football match? I assume this is one of the stupid IRA songs you refer to, but is it only stupid if sung at the match or is it always stupid?
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mick405
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9 Jan 2018, 07:22 PM
Post #2827
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- screwtop
- 9 Jan 2018, 03:38 PM
- obi wan wanyama
- 9 Jan 2018, 02:56 PM
Received the same Tory reply from Annie Wells as the poster above.
Johann Lamont's reply below.
Thank you for your email regarding the repeal of the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act.
I have previously campaigned for the repeal of this legislation, which I believe has targeted and criminalised football fans and seriously damaged the relationship between police and fans without tackling the root causes of sectarianism.
I am a long term supporter of James Kelly’s effort to repeal this legislation and I will vote in favour of repeal when it comes before parliament.
I want to tackle sectarianism through education and prevention, working with anti-sectarianism charities, churches, football authorities and fans to develop positive measures to stamp out sectarianism in Scotland. Across the political spectrum, there is agreement that sectarianism cannot be tolerated anywhere in Scotland - on or off the pitch, in our communities, schools or workplaces. This generation can be the one that stamps out sectarianism for good but there needs to be trust between the authorities and football fans and a renewed push towards tackling sectarianism in classrooms and communities.
I hope this response has been helpful. Regards, Johann Lamont MSP (Glasgow Region)
Sectarianism within our schools? Really? Shut down the non-catholic ones.
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Gothamcelt
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9 Jan 2018, 08:35 PM
Post #2828
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Retired and now a BT Sports pundit
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- mick405
- 9 Jan 2018, 07:22 PM
- screwtop
- 9 Jan 2018, 03:38 PM
- obi wan wanyama
- 9 Jan 2018, 02:56 PM
Received the same Tory reply from Annie Wells as the poster above.
Johann Lamont's reply below.
Thank you for your email regarding the repeal of the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act.
I have previously campaigned for the repeal of this legislation, which I believe has targeted and criminalised football fans and seriously damaged the relationship between police and fans without tackling the root causes of sectarianism.
I am a long term supporter of James Kelly’s effort to repeal this legislation and I will vote in favour of repeal when it comes before parliament.
I want to tackle sectarianism through education and prevention, working with anti-sectarianism charities, churches, football authorities and fans to develop positive measures to stamp out sectarianism in Scotland. Across the political spectrum, there is agreement that sectarianism cannot be tolerated anywhere in Scotland - on or off the pitch, in our communities, schools or workplaces. This generation can be the one that stamps out sectarianism for good but there needs to be trust between the authorities and football fans and a renewed push towards tackling sectarianism in classrooms and communities.
I hope this response has been helpful. Regards, Johann Lamont MSP (Glasgow Region)
Sectarianism within our schools? Really?
Shut down the non-catholic ones. She says "Across the political spectrum, there is agreement that sectarianism cannot be tolerated anywhere in Scotland - on or off the pitch, in our communities, schools or workplaces".
I don't see anything wrong with this comment. Certainly don't see it as advising that Catholic schools should be closed.
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mick405
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9 Jan 2018, 08:40 PM
Post #2829
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- Gothamcelt
- 9 Jan 2018, 08:35 PM
- mick405
- 9 Jan 2018, 07:22 PM
- screwtop
- 9 Jan 2018, 03:38 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Shut down the non-catholic ones.
She says "Across the political spectrum, there is agreement that sectarianism cannot be tolerated anywhere in Scotland - on or off the pitch, in our communities, schools or workplaces". I don't see anything wrong with this comment. Certainly don't see it as advising that Catholic schools should be closed. I'd certainly hope not. Where else are we supposed to get the next generation of good Celtic supporters?
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Quiet Assasin
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9 Jan 2018, 08:42 PM
Post #2830
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..for the maintenance of dinner tables for the children and the unemployed
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- mick405
- 9 Jan 2018, 08:40 PM
- Gothamcelt
- 9 Jan 2018, 08:35 PM
- mick405
- 9 Jan 2018, 07:22 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
She says "Across the political spectrum, there is agreement that sectarianism cannot be tolerated anywhere in Scotland - on or off the pitch, in our communities, schools or workplaces". I don't see anything wrong with this comment. Certainly don't see it as advising that Catholic schools should be closed.
I'd certainly hope not. Where else are we supposed to get the next generation of good Celtic supporters? Junior Orange lodge?
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okayibelieveyou
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9 Jan 2018, 08:54 PM
Post #2831
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Richard Leonard responded to me. Strong words on it. Decent response.
"Thank you for getting in touch with me regarding James Kelly MSP’s proposal to repeal the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012.
I will be voting for the repeal of this unnecessary piece of legislation.
I welcome your support and enthusiasm and agree completely with your analysis of the Act. Not only is the legislation illiberal, it fails to properly tackle sectarianism, and creates tension between police and fans. It further duplicates powers the Police already have to deal with inappropriate behaviour at football games and abuse online. The Law Society has established that all prosecutions brought forward in 2016-17 could have been captured by pre-existing legislation and that those committing religiously aggravated abuse can be prosecuted under section 74 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003 in relation to religious aggravation. Furthermore as representations from Police Scotland have stated, more often than not, cases of threatening communications have been prosecuted using section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 rather than section 6 of the Football Act.
The Football Act is the first ever piece of legislation to be passed without cross-party support, rushed through by the SNP Government using its majority in the last Parliament. The legislation has been widely condemned, by human rights groups, legal experts and fans organisations.
The right place to be combating bigotry is in classrooms, not targeting football fans on terraces or supporting their team. The Scottish Government needs to invest in anti-sectarian initiatives and do more through education.
Thank you again for your support, and I look forward to the day this illiberal and toxic piece of legislation can be struck from the statute books.
Yours sincerely
Richard Leonard MSP for Central Scotland Leader – Scottish Labour Party"
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stevie21
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9 Jan 2018, 09:01 PM
Post #2832
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Poster of the Tuesday afternoon!
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- screwtop
- 9 Jan 2018, 03:38 PM
- obi wan wanyama
- 9 Jan 2018, 02:56 PM
Received the same Tory reply from Annie Wells as the poster above.
Johann Lamont's reply below.
Thank you for your email regarding the repeal of the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act.
I have previously campaigned for the repeal of this legislation, which I believe has targeted and criminalised football fans and seriously damaged the relationship between police and fans without tackling the root causes of sectarianism.
I am a long term supporter of James Kelly’s effort to repeal this legislation and I will vote in favour of repeal when it comes before parliament.
I want to tackle sectarianism through education and prevention, working with anti-sectarianism charities, churches, football authorities and fans to develop positive measures to stamp out sectarianism in Scotland. Across the political spectrum, there is agreement that sectarianism cannot be tolerated anywhere in Scotland - on or off the pitch, in our communities, schools or workplaces. This generation can be the one that stamps out sectarianism for good but there needs to be trust between the authorities and football fans and a renewed push towards tackling sectarianism in classrooms and communities.
I hope this response has been helpful. Regards, Johann Lamont MSP (Glasgow Region)
Sectarianism within our schools? Really? Basically sounds like "sectarianism won't be tolerated from anyone, be they young (school) or old (workplace)"
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justinjest
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9 Jan 2018, 11:34 PM
Post #2833
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- stevie21
- 9 Jan 2018, 09:01 PM
- screwtop
- 9 Jan 2018, 03:38 PM
- obi wan wanyama
- 9 Jan 2018, 02:56 PM
Received the same Tory reply from Annie Wells as the poster above.
Johann Lamont's reply below.
Thank you for your email regarding the repeal of the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act.
I have previously campaigned for the repeal of this legislation, which I believe has targeted and criminalised football fans and seriously damaged the relationship between police and fans without tackling the root causes of sectarianism.
I am a long term supporter of James Kelly’s effort to repeal this legislation and I will vote in favour of repeal when it comes before parliament.
I want to tackle sectarianism through education and prevention, working with anti-sectarianism charities, churches, football authorities and fans to develop positive measures to stamp out sectarianism in Scotland. Across the political spectrum, there is agreement that sectarianism cannot be tolerated anywhere in Scotland - on or off the pitch, in our communities, schools or workplaces. This generation can be the one that stamps out sectarianism for good but there needs to be trust between the authorities and football fans and a renewed push towards tackling sectarianism in classrooms and communities.
I hope this response has been helpful. Regards, Johann Lamont MSP (Glasgow Region)
Sectarianism within our schools? Really?
Basically sounds like "sectarianism won't be tolerated from anyone, be they young (school) or old (workplace)" I read it as we should be tackling sectarianism by education in the classrooms and communities, not that it is there just now
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Stockholm87
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10 Jan 2018, 12:22 AM
Post #2834
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- justinjest
- 9 Jan 2018, 07:13 PM
- Mackin
- 9 Jan 2018, 05:57 PM
- Stockholm87
- 9 Jan 2018, 03:54 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Knowing that something is stupid and/or offensive is entirely different to accepting that something should be illegal, and only illegal in one specific context. But you, presumably, already knew that.
what is really stupid is that singing certain songs, e.g. Roll of Honour, is breaking the law if you sing it on your way to, at, or on your way back from a football match, but it is not not deemed to be breaking the law if you sing it at a demonstration against the act (as happened outside Holyrood). How can anyone try to justify a law that makes something offensive only if it is sung when attending a football match, but not offensive any other time? Surely it is either offensive or it isn't? If it offends other football fans, then surely it will offend other people when sung away from a football match? I assume this is one of the stupid IRA songs you refer to, but is it only stupid if sung at the match or is it always stupid? You illustrate my original point which was not about particular songs but the claim that there were existing laws anyway. On the one hand it shouldn't be illegal but at the same time there were already laws making it illegal. It's this ‘ broken kettle logic' I was getting at.
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Jim Shortz
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10 Jan 2018, 02:44 AM
Post #2835
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- Ponder Stibbons
- 9 Jan 2018, 05:28 PM
Seeing as how the Dubai thread is locked (just as it was getting interesting) One of the more annoying aspects about kds.
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Harry Hewitt
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10 Jan 2018, 03:03 AM
Post #2836
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I'm new. Be gentle.
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- justinjest
- 9 Jan 2018, 11:34 PM
- stevie21
- 9 Jan 2018, 09:01 PM
- screwtop
- 9 Jan 2018, 03:38 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Basically sounds like "sectarianism won't be tolerated from anyone, be they young (school) or old (workplace)"
I read it as we should be tackling sectarianism by education in the classrooms and communities, not that it is there just now As a teacher of English in Glasgow for most of her adult life, I think ms Lamont knew exactly what she was saying.
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tenerifetim
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10 Jan 2018, 08:14 AM
Post #2837
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I've had 2 very quick responses :-
Reply from Ken Mcintosh MSP - as Presiding officer he hs to stay neutral in debate
Spoiler: click to toggle Ken Macintosh MSP (Ken.macintosh.msp@parliament.scot)To:you Details Our Ref: MD/KM
Dear X
Thank you for your recent email for letting me of your own support for the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Repeal) (Scotland) Bill.
While I appreciate you taking the time to write to me, and whatever my own views and sympathies, you may be aware that as well as being one of your MSPs here in the West of Scotland region I also serve as the Scottish Parliament's Presiding Officer. It is a position which obliges me to remain impartial and restricts the level of parliamentary support I can show on matters such as this. For example, I now chair debates rather than taking part in them and will be unable to vote on the Repeal Bill as it makes its way through Parliament.
In any event, I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts with me.
Yours sincerely Ken
Rt Hon Ken Macintosh MSP Presiding Officer
Response from Maurice Golden in support of repeal of act.
Spoiler: click to toggle Golden M (Maurice), MSP (Maurice.Golden.msp@parliament.scot)To:you Details Dear X,
Thank you for contacting me with your concerns regarding the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012.
Let me first make it clear at the outset that I consider sectarian behaviour and hate crime to be a blight on society in Scotland and it should not be tolerated under any circumstances. However, I do believe there is a compelling case for the repeal of this ill-considered and badly drafted law.
It is clear that pre-existing laws against ‘breach of the peace’ and ‘threatening or abusive behaviour’ already covered the types of offences that this Act was designed to tackle. The latest recorded crime statistics show that the vast majority of these crimes continue to be charged under pre-existing offences – highlighting that the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act is unnecessary.
There is also considerable opposition to this law from the legal profession and stakeholders. More than 3200 football clubs and members of the public took part in the recent consultation on the legislation and a hefty 71 per cent of respondents backed the repeal of Sections 1-5 and 62 per cent supported the repeal of Sections 6-9. A senior judge has said provisions of the Act were ‘horribly drafted’. The Law Society of Scotland have concluded that the new offence ‘does not improve’ on existing offences, and that all 287 charges brought under Section 1 of the legislation in 2015-16 ‘could have been prosecuted under pre-existing legislation’. On this basis, they said the legislation ‘has not been fundamental to tackling sectarianism’.
The 2015 Morrow report emphasises that the impact of sectarianism varies from community to community and that it is not a one-size-fits-all issue. We need an enduring change in culture and attitudes. That happens in homes, classrooms and communities. It is facilitated by the work of charities and third sector organisations such as Nil by Mouth, and we need to see and support more of that community-led activity.
I believe the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act unfairly targets those civilised, law-abiding fans who simply want to enjoy Scotland’s beautiful game. For the reasons set out above, I plan to vote in favour of this Act’s repeal when next presented with the opportunity.
Thank you once again for taking the time to write to me.
Regards,
Maurice Golden MSP
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smudgethecat
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10 Jan 2018, 08:41 AM
Post #2838
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- okayibelieveyou
- 9 Jan 2018, 08:54 PM
Richard Leonard responded to me. Strong words on it. Decent response.
"Thank you for getting in touch with me regarding James Kelly MSP’s proposal to repeal the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012.
I will be voting for the repeal of this unnecessary piece of legislation.
I welcome your support and enthusiasm and agree completely with your analysis of the Act. Not only is the legislation illiberal, it fails to properly tackle sectarianism, and creates tension between police and fans. It further duplicates powers the Police already have to deal with inappropriate behaviour at football games and abuse online. The Law Society has established that all prosecutions brought forward in 2016-17 could have been captured by pre-existing legislation and that those committing religiously aggravated abuse can be prosecuted under section 74 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003 in relation to religious aggravation. Furthermore as representations from Police Scotland have stated, more often than not, cases of threatening communications have been prosecuted using section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 rather than section 6 of the Football Act.
The Football Act is the first ever piece of legislation to be passed without cross-party support, rushed through by the SNP Government using its majority in the last Parliament. The legislation has been widely condemned, by human rights groups, legal experts and fans organisations.
The right place to be combating bigotry is in classrooms, not targeting football fans on terraces or supporting their team. The Scottish Government needs to invest in anti-sectarian initiatives and do more through education.
Thank you again for your support, and I look forward to the day this illiberal and toxic piece of legislation can be struck from the statute books.
Yours sincerely
Richard Leonard MSP for Central Scotland Leader – Scottish Labour Party" "illiberal and toxic". Listen to Che Guevara. Probably vote to lock up football fans in cages next year
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Owenybhoy
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10 Jan 2018, 10:01 AM
Post #2839
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- justinjest
- 9 Jan 2018, 07:13 PM
- Mackin
- 9 Jan 2018, 05:57 PM
- Stockholm87
- 9 Jan 2018, 03:54 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Knowing that something is stupid and/or offensive is entirely different to accepting that something should be illegal, and only illegal in one specific context. But you, presumably, already knew that.
what is really stupid is that singing certain songs, e.g. Roll of Honour, is breaking the law if you sing it on your way to, at, or on your way back from a football match, but it is not not deemed to be breaking the law if you sing it at a demonstration against the act (as happened outside Holyrood). How can anyone try to justify a law that makes something offensive only if it is sung when attending a football match, but not offensive any other time? Surely it is either offensive or it isn't? If it offends other football fans, then surely it will offend other people when sung away from a football match? I assume this is one of the stupid IRA songs you refer to, but is it only stupid if sung at the match or is it always stupid? Maybe when singing these songs, you should hold up a 'Parental Advisory' poster, just so the kids don't get offended, while legally you are informing those who may hear and therefore the police have no comeback on you.
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mac_bhoy
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10 Jan 2018, 10:20 AM
Post #2840
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FAC @FACKilltheBill The automated email system is now up and running again so please start emailing your MSPs and get your ma, your da, your granny and your alsation dug on it too!
https://www.celtictrust.net/index.php?func=d_home_msps
It is very important we all do this and keep the pressure on them until it is scrapped, all you have to do is click on the link put in your postcode and then select what MSP you want to send it to and as the template is already set up it literally takes two minutes
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