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Scott Brown...Celtic Great; Our Captain
Topic Started: 16 Oct 2017, 10:52 PM (26,219 Views)
Wilfred Benitez
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Luigi
19 Oct 2017, 12:49 PM
smudgethecat
18 Oct 2017, 10:45 AM
Love Tommy as a man, but I don't think he was very good. He wouldn't make our midfield today.
Do you even watch football?
I don't know if he does or not, but he sure as hell couldn't have ever watched TB in a Celtic jersey...
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stevie21
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ballbhoy
19 Oct 2017, 10:23 AM
Just to add to this thread. Here's the link to passing stats for all players last night.

Scott Brown's continues to have a high standard. Based on these stats I'm not sure how he could offer Bayern 3 chances on a plate.

He attempted 57 passes and completed 56.


http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/ucl/2018/2021630_tpd.pdf

Not that I remember it happening, but he could've passed to someone who was in no state to receive the ball and who then lost it. Or he could be tackled and lose possession. Or he could dive in to a tackle and get nowhere near it, allowing the attacker a free run at the defence. I don't remember any of that happening*, and I don't remember him offering Bayern any chances on a plate, but in theory, that pdf of stats doesn't disprove the notion.

*I don't remember much of anything from the game :gavbhoy:
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stevie21
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Just to follow on from the discussion about stats, I quite like reading them, and the way that the likes of CelticByNumbers uses them, but certain stats on their own definitely can be misleading.

http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2018/matches/round=2000881/match=2021630/statistics/index.html

Passing Accuracy %
Bayern 88%
Celtic 89%

:ponder:
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Bawman
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stevie21
19 Oct 2017, 01:58 PM
Just to follow on from the discussion about stats, I quite like reading them, and the way that the likes of CelticByNumbers uses them, but certain stats on their own definitely can be misleading.

http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2018/matches/round=2000881/match=2021630/statistics/index.html

Passing Accuracy %
Bayern 88%
Celtic 89%

:ponder:
I'd say our accuracy with the ball would be down to sideways and backwards passes while for Bayern their emphasis was always about moving the ball forward.
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stevie21
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Bawman
19 Oct 2017, 02:02 PM
stevie21
19 Oct 2017, 01:58 PM
Just to follow on from the discussion about stats, I quite like reading them, and the way that the likes of CelticByNumbers uses them, but certain stats on their own definitely can be misleading.

http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2018/matches/round=2000881/match=2021630/statistics/index.html

Passing Accuracy %
Bayern 88%
Celtic 89%

:ponder:
I'd say our accuracy with the ball would be down to sideways and backwards passes while for Bayern their emphasis was always about moving the ball forward.
I know, I just think that if you quote those stats to someone who hasn't seen the game, you could easily mislead them. As much as I like the CBN posts, you can see why someone people say that stats on their own don't tell you enough :thumbsup:
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jebus82
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stevie21
19 Oct 2017, 02:21 PM
Bawman
19 Oct 2017, 02:02 PM
stevie21
19 Oct 2017, 01:58 PM
Just to follow on from the discussion about stats, I quite like reading them, and the way that the likes of CelticByNumbers uses them, but certain stats on their own definitely can be misleading.

http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2018/matches/round=2000881/match=2021630/statistics/index.html

Passing Accuracy %
Bayern 88%
Celtic 89%

:ponder:
I'd say our accuracy with the ball would be down to sideways and backwards passes while for Bayern their emphasis was always about moving the ball forward.
I know, I just think that if you quote those stats to someone who hasn't seen the game, you could easily mislead them. As much as I like the CBN posts, you can see why someone people say that stats on their own don't tell you enough :thumbsup:
yep thats generally my point, stats pages like that are all very nice but they dont tell you anything about context. This thread is a personal favourite for the stat obsessed though :lol:
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Larbertbhoy
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This thread is a personal favourite of fans who know how absolutely critical Broony is to our team and how good he was last night.

You don't need a stat for that, but his stats ain't bad either.

The guys just great 🍀

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Stephane_Mahe
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jebus82
19 Oct 2017, 12:04 PM
Larbertbhoy
19 Oct 2017, 10:31 AM
ballbhoy
19 Oct 2017, 10:23 AM
Just to add to this thread. Here's the link to passing stats for all players last night.

Scott Brown's continues to have a high standard. Based on these stats I'm not sure how he could offer Bayern 3 chances on a plate.

He attempted 57 passes and completed 56.


http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/ucl/2018/2021630_tpd.pdf

Dinner is served :thumbsup:
:lol: this again, how many of those were in midfield, and how many were from dropping back to defence and passing the ball from there under no pressure? Ntchams passing stats are more impressive as the majority were actually attempted from midfield. Browns passing stats are constantly high because of where he picks it up and passes from (rodgers tactic) he is generally passing from defence under no pressure into a midfielder or full back. You want impressive passing stats go and look at thiago and ruddy's who are constantly doing it from midfield areas under pressure.
I really don't like these stats at all - they don't take into account how easy the pass was and as Wigwam points out, you can play a pass, it reaches its target and so it's counted as a completed pass but it actually puts your teammate under pressure and he loses the ball.

There was a fine example last night (early, I think) in the first half when Brown, instead of turning and using the space on the other side, played a dreadful pass into Gamboa. It reached Gamboa so it was a "completed pass" but was fizzed right at him with someone closing him down and left Gamboa no option but to hump it up the park. A "completed pass" for Brown but in terms of keeping possession for the team it was absolutely hopeless.

For what's it worth, I thought Brown was a stand-out as our best player last night - at least until Dembele and Rogic came on - but these passing stats are crock of shampooe.
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ballbhoy
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The stats are fantastic.

Regular contributors to this thread since Scott Brown signed will know that he was often criticised for poor passing. When it was pointed out that he was actually quite good at passing with examples (eg Hooper goal at Ibrox) the criticism was then that this was a one off and that he misplaced a lot of passes. With the widespread availability of stats these were then posted and what do you know Scott Brown was no longer criticised on his passing.

Now that he is regularly shown as being one of our top performers then this stat is no longer relevant. Fantastic. :lol:

Thankfully Brendan uses these stats and much more information about the players to help him in his planning and preparation.

Those who dismiss passing stats as a crock of shampoo display an ignorance of how the game has evolved.

I just enjoy the Scott Brown thread as in almost every European game he shows how good he is.

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Stephane_Mahe
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ballbhoy
19 Oct 2017, 03:28 PM
The stats are fantastic.

Regular contributors to this thread since Scott Brown signed will know that he was often criticised for poor passing. When it was pointed out that he was actually quite good at passing with examples (eg Hooper goal at Ibrox) the criticism was then that this was a one off and that he misplaced a lot of passes. With the widespread availability of stats these were then posted and what do you know Scott Brown was no longer criticised on his passing.

Now that he is regularly shown as being one of our top performers then this stat is no longer relevant. Fantastic. :lol:

Thankfully Brendan uses these stats and much more information about the players to help him in his planning and preparation.

Those who dismiss passing stats as a crock of shampoo display an ignorance of how the game has evolved.

I just enjoy the Scott Brown thread as in almost every European game he shows how good he is.

The link you posted shows that our pass completed percentage was actually higher than Bayern's last night yet they completely humped us.

Thiago pretty much ran the game (along with Rudy) yet is below Brown.

Lewandowski is below Griffiths yet Lewandowski was a danger all night and Griffiths done barely anything of note - one pass to Roberts on the counter is all I can think of.

3 pretty good examples of where the passing stats are basically meaningless.
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Luigi
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Wilfred Benitez
19 Oct 2017, 01:52 PM
Luigi
19 Oct 2017, 12:49 PM
smudgethecat
18 Oct 2017, 10:45 AM
Love Tommy as a man, but I don't think he was very good. He wouldn't make our midfield today.
Do you even watch football?
I don't know if he does or not, but he sure as hell couldn't have ever watched TB in a Celtic jersey...
Exactly. One of the most stupid things I think I've seen on here and there's been loads!
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ballbhoy
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Stephane_Mahe
19 Oct 2017, 03:58 PM
ballbhoy
19 Oct 2017, 03:28 PM
The stats are fantastic.

Regular contributors to this thread since Scott Brown signed will know that he was often criticised for poor passing. When it was pointed out that he was actually quite good at passing with examples (eg Hooper goal at Ibrox) the criticism was then that this was a one off and that he misplaced a lot of passes. With the widespread availability of stats these were then posted and what do you know Scott Brown was no longer criticised on his passing.

Now that he is regularly shown as being one of our top performers then this stat is no longer relevant. Fantastic. :lol:

Thankfully Brendan uses these stats and much more information about the players to help him in his planning and preparation.

Those who dismiss passing stats as a crock of shampoo display an ignorance of how the game has evolved.

I just enjoy the Scott Brown thread as in almost every European game he shows how good he is.

The link you posted shows that our pass completed percentage was actually higher than Bayern's last night yet they completely humped us.

Thiago pretty much ran the game (along with Rudy) yet is below Brown.

Lewandowski is below Griffiths yet Lewandowski was a danger all night and Griffiths done barely anything of note - one pass to Roberts on the counter is all I can think of.

3 pretty good examples of where the passing stats are basically meaningless.
I fear you've jumped in on the thread a bit late. I suggest you go back a few pages and see why I originally posted the stats. I did so to counter a point that Brown handed Bayern 3 chances on a plate.

The fact that our passes completed shows a higher % than Bayern can be easily explained if you engage some thought.

The majority of Bayern's misplaced passes will be in the final third. It will be interception of their final pass that will be working against them. I'd say that the passing of their attacking players like Robben and Lewandowski will be taking it down.

That's why stats aren't used in isolation. It'll be why managers like Brendan use them with other key measurements. Brendan won't be dismissing them as totally meaningless - as his post match comments suggest.

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wigwam
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Wish my old man was still alive so I could ask him to prove Murdoch was a good player by producing some stats on his passing. Eff knows how he was judging him. ;)
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wigwam
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Stephane_Mahe
19 Oct 2017, 03:58 PM
ballbhoy
19 Oct 2017, 03:28 PM
The stats are fantastic.

Regular contributors to this thread since Scott Brown signed will know that he was often criticised for poor passing. When it was pointed out that he was actually quite good at passing with examples (eg Hooper goal at Ibrox) the criticism was then that this was a one off and that he misplaced a lot of passes. With the widespread availability of stats these were then posted and what do you know Scott Brown was no longer criticised on his passing.

Now that he is regularly shown as being one of our top performers then this stat is no longer relevant. Fantastic. :lol:

Thankfully Brendan uses these stats and much more information about the players to help him in his planning and preparation.

Those who dismiss passing stats as a crock of shampoo display an ignorance of how the game has evolved.

I just enjoy the Scott Brown thread as in almost every European game he shows how good he is.

The link you posted shows that our pass completed percentage was actually higher than Bayern's last night yet they completely humped us.

Thiago pretty much ran the game (along with Rudy) yet is below Brown.

Lewandowski is below Griffiths yet Lewandowski was a danger all night and Griffiths done barely anything of note - one pass to Roberts on the counter is all I can think of.

3 pretty good examples of where the passing stats are basically meaningless.
They're a bit like mini-skirts in a way. They give you good ideas but hide the important stuff. :lol:

Ebbe :worthy:
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Stephane_Mahe
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ballbhoy
19 Oct 2017, 04:14 PM
Stephane_Mahe
19 Oct 2017, 03:58 PM
ballbhoy
19 Oct 2017, 03:28 PM
The stats are fantastic.

Regular contributors to this thread since Scott Brown signed will know that he was often criticised for poor passing. When it was pointed out that he was actually quite good at passing with examples (eg Hooper goal at Ibrox) the criticism was then that this was a one off and that he misplaced a lot of passes. With the widespread availability of stats these were then posted and what do you know Scott Brown was no longer criticised on his passing.

Now that he is regularly shown as being one of our top performers then this stat is no longer relevant. Fantastic. :lol:

Thankfully Brendan uses these stats and much more information about the players to help him in his planning and preparation.

Those who dismiss passing stats as a crock of shampoo display an ignorance of how the game has evolved.

I just enjoy the Scott Brown thread as in almost every European game he shows how good he is.

The link you posted shows that our pass completed percentage was actually higher than Bayern's last night yet they completely humped us.

Thiago pretty much ran the game (along with Rudy) yet is below Brown.

Lewandowski is below Griffiths yet Lewandowski was a danger all night and Griffiths done barely anything of note - one pass to Roberts on the counter is all I can think of.

3 pretty good examples of where the passing stats are basically meaningless.
I fear you've jumped in on the thread a bit late. I suggest you go back a few pages and see why I originally posted the stats. I did so to counter a point that Brown handed Bayern 3 chances on a plate.

The fact that our passes completed shows a higher % than Bayern can be easily explained if you engage some thought.

The majority of Bayern's misplaced passes will be in the final third. It will be interception of their final pass that will be working against them. I'd say that the passing of their attacking players like Robben and Lewandowski will be taking it down.

That's why stats aren't used in isolation. It'll be why managers like Brendan use them with other key measurements. Brendan won't be dismissing them as totally meaningless - as his post match comments suggest.

I was replying directly to the points you made in the post I replied to, so don't need to go back a few pages.

Quote:
 
Those who dismiss passing stats as a crock of shampoo display an ignorance of how the game has evolved.


I presumed that this was a reply to me as "crock of shampooe" was the exact phrase I used in the post directly above yours - apologies if this was a coincidence.

I'm well aware of why Bayern's stats were poorer than ours - it backs up my point completely.

Speaking specifically about Brown, he's very good at what he does and is probably our most important player, but his passing stats are so good because he is, in the main, a very safe passer.

Speaking generally about stats, I just don't see much point in using them to try to back up arguments like this, you can prove almost anything you like with them.

Brown's pass to Gamboa last night is a "completed pass" for Brown and led to an "uncompleted pass" for Gamboa, yet it was almost entirely Brown's fault that we lost the ball. Situations like that are why, in my opinion, using stats to try to back up arguments is pointless.
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ballbhoy
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wigwam
19 Oct 2017, 04:30 PM
Wish my old man was still alive so I could ask him to prove Murdoch was a good player by producing some stats on his passing. Eff knows how he was judging him. ;)
If your old man was still alive he might have given you a more informed opinion on Brown too.

You from last summer

"I've never been a fan of Brown and don't mind admitting it. Brought up on McStay (bit spoiled probably, I know) I like a central midfielder who can control, pass, score, read the game better than Brown does. "

Now we've got stats supporting Brown as being an effective passer you're not interested. :lol:
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ballbhoy
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Stephane_Mahe
19 Oct 2017, 04:37 PM
ballbhoy
19 Oct 2017, 04:14 PM
Stephane_Mahe
19 Oct 2017, 03:58 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I fear you've jumped in on the thread a bit late. I suggest you go back a few pages and see why I originally posted the stats. I did so to counter a point that Brown handed Bayern 3 chances on a plate.

The fact that our passes completed shows a higher % than Bayern can be easily explained if you engage some thought.

The majority of Bayern's misplaced passes will be in the final third. It will be interception of their final pass that will be working against them. I'd say that the passing of their attacking players like Robben and Lewandowski will be taking it down.

That's why stats aren't used in isolation. It'll be why managers like Brendan use them with other key measurements. Brendan won't be dismissing them as totally meaningless - as his post match comments suggest.

I was replying directly to the points you made in the post I replied to, so don't need to go back a few pages.

Quote:
 
Those who dismiss passing stats as a crock of shampoo display an ignorance of how the game has evolved.


I presumed that this was a reply to me as "crock of shampooe" was the exact phrase I used in the post directly above yours - apologies if this was a coincidence.

I'm well aware of why Bayern's stats were poorer than ours - it backs up my point completely.

Speaking specifically about Brown, he's very good at what he does and is probably our most important player, but his passing stats are so good because he is, in the main, a very safe passer.

Speaking generally about stats, I just don't see much point in using them to try to back up arguments like this, you can prove almost anything you like with them.

Brown's pass to Gamboa last night is a "completed pass" for Brown and led to an "uncompleted pass" for Gamboa, yet it was almost entirely Brown's fault that we lost the ball. Situations like that are why, in my opinion, using stats to try to back up arguments is pointless.
You think passing stats are meaningless. I think we'll leave it there mate as your dismissal of them is a bit daft. :thumbsup:
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Stephane_Mahe
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ballbhoy
19 Oct 2017, 04:47 PM
Stephane_Mahe
19 Oct 2017, 04:37 PM
ballbhoy
19 Oct 2017, 04:14 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I was replying directly to the points you made in the post I replied to, so don't need to go back a few pages.

Quote:
 
Those who dismiss passing stats as a crock of shampoo display an ignorance of how the game has evolved.


I presumed that this was a reply to me as "crock of shampooe" was the exact phrase I used in the post directly above yours - apologies if this was a coincidence.

I'm well aware of why Bayern's stats were poorer than ours - it backs up my point completely.

Speaking specifically about Brown, he's very good at what he does and is probably our most important player, but his passing stats are so good because he is, in the main, a very safe passer.

Speaking generally about stats, I just don't see much point in using them to try to back up arguments like this, you can prove almost anything you like with them.

Brown's pass to Gamboa last night is a "completed pass" for Brown and led to an "uncompleted pass" for Gamboa, yet it was almost entirely Brown's fault that we lost the ball. Situations like that are why, in my opinion, using stats to try to back up arguments is pointless.
You think passing stats are meaningless. I think we'll leave it there mate as your dismissal of them is a bit daft. :thumbsup:
Well I think your reverence to them is a bit daft, but there you go.
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ballbhoy
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Stephane_Mahe
19 Oct 2017, 04:52 PM
ballbhoy
19 Oct 2017, 04:47 PM
Stephane_Mahe
19 Oct 2017, 04:37 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
You think passing stats are meaningless. I think we'll leave it there mate as your dismissal of them is a bit daft. :thumbsup:
Well I think your reverence to them is a bit daft, but there you go.
Fortunately Brendan doesn't :thumbsup:
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wigwam
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ballbhoy
19 Oct 2017, 04:45 PM
wigwam
19 Oct 2017, 04:30 PM
Wish my old man was still alive so I could ask him to prove Murdoch was a good player by producing some stats on his passing. Eff knows how he was judging him. ;)
If your old man was still alive he might have given you a more informed opinion on Brown too.

You from last summer

"I've never been a fan of Brown and don't mind admitting it. Brought up on McStay (bit spoiled probably, I know) I like a central midfielder who can control, pass, score, read the game better than Brown does. "

Now we've got stats supporting Brown as being an effective passer you're not interested. :lol:
Holy effin' Mother of god.

Are you suggesting your stats tell you Scott Brown was as good or better at passing the ball than Paul McStay? :ponder:
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