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Ref Watch 2017/18; A fraternity of dunces
Topic Started: 5 Aug 2017, 03:56 PM (201,390 Views)
tomtom
First name on the team-sheet
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aldo
12 Feb 2018, 02:11 PM
Apparently some hun ran into the fans yesterday to celebrate his goal. Is that, or is that not a bookable offence? I really don't know, but if it is, surely tae feck there can be no ambiguity about the course of action a ref must take: if it's a rule then the player must be booked. No excuses, no exceptions. It's not an action that can be misconstrued or 'open to interpretation' as a challenge or a handball claim can be, it's open and shut. Celtic players are routinely booked for this, huns are not. Even if it's not an automatic bookable offence, would it be so difficult to challenge the inconsistency?
To be fair to Cummings I don't think he ran into the crowd. It was when the rest of the players crowded round him that their momentum carried him into the crowd. Whether that constitutes a booking or not I don't know but you can be sure if it happened to one of our players he would have been in the book.
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weebaldy
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We Won the Big One-They Never Will!
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shugmc
11 Feb 2018, 11:41 AM
aldo
11 Feb 2018, 11:17 AM
The Gorbals Urchin
11 Feb 2018, 09:31 AM
Brendan must have some patience putting up with this week in week out .
Well, it’s high effing time it ran out. I’m sick to the back teeth of this meek, take it on the chin approach of the club, and I include it’s general dealings. Everyone takes the piss out of Celtic - match officials, other managers, other players - even their wives, FFS - the MSM, the football authorities. When an arsehole like Levein runs us down whenever the mood takes him, he’s doing it in the confidence any response will be feeble. Brendan’s maybe used to a more civilised football culture, but this is Scotland, and Scotland effing hates us.

The assaults on our players with the compliance of officials will only increase with our success. They become more brazen the longer a game goes on when unchecked. We must stop giving the cheating bastards an easy ride: question every wrong decision, pressure the ref into explaining wrong decisions, put them in the spotlight, highlight every foul - we go into every match as if history was erased, trusting them to referee fairly, and near every time they betray that basic trust.

Celtic is a soft touch. We need to man the eff up.
:theclap:

Eff them :arrr:
Careful now, you might just be paranoid. :lol: Seriously, I've been saying this for ages and have been advised just to calm down etc. but, for me, our club has taken a softy softly approach in matters like this for too long and they must start to tackle the blatant cheatingor it will just continue. :thumbsup:
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Wailer
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IainG
12 Feb 2018, 01:18 PM
Scottish referees are bad alright but watching some English games recently some of the English refs are equally as poor. I'm in the minority here but I don't think there is a great refereeing conspiracy afoot to do down Celtic at every opportunity.
You could be right but don't celebrate your win with anyone as being a Tim will see you booked. Every other carrot gets away with it though.
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gary1888
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Refs are all wee arse holes who no one liked at school even the teachers fact.
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Country Mac
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Wailer
12 Feb 2018, 02:33 PM
IainG
12 Feb 2018, 01:18 PM
Scottish referees are bad alright but watching some English games recently some of the English refs are equally as poor. I'm in the minority here but I don't think there is a great refereeing conspiracy afoot to do down Celtic at every opportunity.
You could be right but don't celebrate your win with anyone as being a Tim will see you booked. Every other carrot gets away with it though.
Agree that Brendan needs to speak out more about this. He couldn't be further away from Mowbray in just about every other aspect of management, but there's a worrying resemblance between the two in this regard.

But I'd also like to see it more from the players. We got a glimpse of it when Griffiths and I think maybe Lustig? were right in about Gary Fraser after he walloped the ball into our fans. But I'd have loved to see someone leave one on Booth after his challenge on Lustig. Even if it meant a booking or two. We know now the refs won't protect our players so somebody has to.

Edit: Don't know how this ended up as a quote :lol:
Edited by Country Mac, 12 Feb 2018, 02:40 PM.
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asterisk_years
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We're getting a lot of fouls against us this season, which admittedly means the referees are "doing their job" but I'm not sure they're issuing enough cards. If you go back through the last couple of games, the numbers suffered compared to committed is quite high almost twice as many.
21 from Hearts resulting in 3 bookings (to 9f & 2b)
17 from Killie resulting in 4 bookings (to 6f & 3b)
21 from Thistle resulting in 1 booking (to 10f & 0b)

If you compare that to Aberdeen.
10 from Hamilton resulting in 1 booking (to 10f & 0b)
16 from Dundee Utd resulting in 3 bookings (to 12f & 3b)
11 from Ross Country resulting in 3 bookings (to 12f & 3b)

So it seems to me that teams are committing more fouls against us, with less bookings than against the 2nd placed team. That's my perception from watching the game (That there are too many fouls going unpunished) and the numbers seem to back that up.
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Wailer
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asterisk_years
12 Feb 2018, 02:42 PM
We're getting a lot of fouls against us this season, which admittedly means the referees are "doing their job" but I'm not sure they're issuing enough cards. If you go back through the last couple of games, the numbers suffered compared to committed is quite high almost twice as many.
21 from Hearts resulting in 3 bookings (to 9f & 2b)
17 from Killie resulting in 4 bookings (to 6f & 3b)
21 from Thistle resulting in 1 booking (to 10f & 0b)

If you compare that to Aberdeen.
10 from Hamilton resulting in 1 booking (to 10f & 0b)
16 from Dundee Utd resulting in 3 bookings (to 12f & 3b)
11 from Ross Country resulting in 3 bookings (to 12f & 3b)

So it seems to me that teams are committing more fouls against us, with less bookings than against the 2nd placed team. That's my perception from watching the game (That there are too many fouls going unpunished) and the numbers seem to back that up.
Aye but during Celtic games we've had more opposition players given a right good talking too.
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asterisk_years
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Wailer
12 Feb 2018, 02:45 PM
asterisk_years
12 Feb 2018, 02:42 PM
We're getting a lot of fouls against us this season, which admittedly means the referees are "doing their job" but I'm not sure they're issuing enough cards. If you go back through the last couple of games, the numbers suffered compared to committed is quite high almost twice as many.
21 from Hearts resulting in 3 bookings (to 9f & 2b)
17 from Killie resulting in 4 bookings (to 6f & 3b)
21 from Thistle resulting in 1 booking (to 10f & 0b)

If you compare that to Aberdeen.
10 from Hamilton resulting in 1 booking (to 10f & 0b)
16 from Dundee Utd resulting in 3 bookings (to 12f & 3b)
11 from Ross Country resulting in 3 bookings (to 12f & 3b)

So it seems to me that teams are committing more fouls against us, with less bookings than against the 2nd placed team. That's my perception from watching the game (That there are too many fouls going unpunished) and the numbers seem to back that up.
Aye but during Celtic games we've had more opposition players given a right good talking too.
You can't under estimate the power of a 'right good talking to', I suppose.

These things are vastly subjective down to the ref etc but as a rough guide it kinda backs up my perception from watching the games.
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asterisk_years
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Wailer
12 Feb 2018, 02:45 PM
asterisk_years
12 Feb 2018, 02:42 PM
We're getting a lot of fouls against us this season, which admittedly means the referees are "doing their job" but I'm not sure they're issuing enough cards. If you go back through the last couple of games, the numbers suffered compared to committed is quite high almost twice as many.
21 from Hearts resulting in 3 bookings (to 9f & 2b)
17 from Killie resulting in 4 bookings (to 6f & 3b)
21 from Thistle resulting in 1 booking (to 10f & 0b)

If you compare that to Aberdeen.
10 from Hamilton resulting in 1 booking (to 10f & 0b)
16 from Dundee Utd resulting in 3 bookings (to 12f & 3b)
11 from Ross Country resulting in 3 bookings (to 12f & 3b)

So it seems to me that teams are committing more fouls against us, with less bookings than against the 2nd placed team. That's my perception from watching the game (That there are too many fouls going unpunished) and the numbers seem to back that up.
Aye but during Celtic games we've had more opposition players given a right good talking too.
You can't under estimate the power of a 'right good talking to', I suppose.

These things are vastly subjective down to the ref etc but as a rough guide it kinda backs up my perception from watching the games.
*sorry, posted this twice and don't know how to delete it*
Edited by asterisk_years, 12 Feb 2018, 02:49 PM.
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Chalmers
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aldo
12 Feb 2018, 02:11 PM
Apparently some hun ran into the fans yesterday to celebrate his goal. Is that, or is that not a bookable offence? I really don't know, but if it is, surely tae feck there can be no ambiguity about the course of action a ref must take: if it's a rule then the player must be booked. No excuses, no exceptions. It's not an action that can be misconstrued or 'open to interpretation' as a challenge or a handball claim can be, it's open and shut. Celtic players are routinely booked for this, huns are not. Even if it's not an automatic bookable offence, would it be so difficult to challenge the inconsistency?
The latest wording of the law re goal celebration does leave some element of discretion with the referee.

Leaving the field of play to celebrate a goal is not a cautionable offence but players should return as soon as possible.
A player must be cautioned for:
• climbing onto a perimeter fence and/or approaching the spectators in a manner which causes safety and/or security issues
• gesturing or acting in a provocative, derisory or inflammatory way
• covering the head or face with a mask or other similar item
• removing the shirt or covering the head with the shirt


How is he to decide whether or not it causes safety issues?
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IainG
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Ah but I was so much older then,I'm younger than that now
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To clarify what I think.. a couple of current referees, ie Madden and McLean are worth looking at with regard to their performances in Celtic games. No argument from me there but after every single Celtic game no matter who the ref is, we see comments like "he's at it" or "blatant cheating" even concerning foreign refs in our European games. I usually put this down to spur of the moment anger at a particular decision but maybe I'm wrong.
Also, in the past, particularly the 50's and 60's I have little doubt there was a group of match officials with an inbuilt bias against us, eg Young,Tait,Gordon, Curry. I can't really believe that the likes of Lawwell would not know if this kind of behaviour was widespread or not today and if it was would not have taken action against it.

Edit: I also believe the cheating in the past was fostered and sanctioned from the very top of the SFA and League.
Edited by IainG, 12 Feb 2018, 03:08 PM.
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asterisk_years
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IainG
12 Feb 2018, 03:05 PM
To clarify what I think.. a couple of current referees, ie Madden and McLean are worth looking at with regard to their performances in Celtic games. No argument from me there but after every single Celtic game no matter who the ref is, we see comments like "he's at it" or "blatant cheating" even concerning foreign refs in our European games. I usually put this down to spur of the moment anger at a particular decision but maybe I'm wrong.
Also, in the past, particularly the 50's and 60's I have little doubt there was a group of match officials with an inbuilt bias against us, eg Young,Tait,Gordon, Curry. I can't really believe that the likes of Lawwell would not know if this kind of behaviour was widespread or not today and if it was would not have taken action against it.
I think there's an inherent feeling that we're much superior and you don't want to "punish" the opposite too much. You want to extend them the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. Too much at times.
Edited by asterisk_years, 12 Feb 2018, 03:10 PM.
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Torquemada
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IainG
12 Feb 2018, 01:37 PM
Torquemada
12 Feb 2018, 01:26 PM
IainG
12 Feb 2018, 01:18 PM
Scottish referees are bad alright but watching some English games recently some of the English refs are equally as poor. I'm in the minority here but I don't think there is a great refereeing conspiracy afoot to do down Celtic at every opportunity.
Yeah? An analysis of the number of fouls to bookings for Celtic players as opposed to their opponents might prove instructive. There's a PhD there for someone going back to 2000. Just a suggestion.

Edit: I'd be prepared to stand over the findings one way or the other. :thumbsup:
I'm afraid my doctorate will have to be on something simpler! Regarding Broony I would agree that the unfair reputation he has earned causes him to be carded often unfairly.
Simpler than fouls to bookings? :ponder: Are you allowed out on your own?
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IainG
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Ah but I was so much older then,I'm younger than that now
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Torquemada
12 Feb 2018, 03:11 PM
IainG
12 Feb 2018, 01:37 PM
Torquemada
12 Feb 2018, 01:26 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I'm afraid my doctorate will have to be on something simpler! Regarding Broony I would agree that the unfair reputation he has earned causes him to be carded often unfairly.
Simpler than fouls to bookings? :ponder: Are you allowed out on your own?
It's worth a PhD according to you.

In answer to your question.....sometimes!

:thumbsup:
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Torquemada
Off treasure hunting in Holland
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IainG
12 Feb 2018, 03:13 PM
Torquemada
12 Feb 2018, 03:11 PM
IainG
12 Feb 2018, 01:37 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Simpler than fouls to bookings? :ponder: Are you allowed out on your own?
It's worth a PhD according to you.

In answer to your question.....sometimes!

:thumbsup:
Fouls to bookings would be indicative rather than definitive. But I recall Not The View doing an analysis based on the Sunday Post foul count which, of course, only counted Saturday games in those days. Celtic had the lowest number of fouls to bookings, Hibs the second lowest. My impression is that nothing much has changed.

I'm sure you're right in that this is purely due to residual incompetence rather than anything more sinister. :thumbsup:
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paulfg42
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The only problem with fouls to bookings ratios is how many of the fouls were for offences like offside which don't involve violence against an opponent.
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aldo
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And that's the way we like it...
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Torquemada
12 Feb 2018, 03:26 PM
IainG
12 Feb 2018, 03:13 PM
Torquemada
12 Feb 2018, 03:11 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
It's worth a PhD according to you.

In answer to your question.....sometimes!

:thumbsup:
Fouls to bookings would be indicative rather than definitive. But I recall Not The View doing an analysis based on the Sunday Post foul count which, of course, only counted Saturday games in those days. Celtic had the lowest number of fouls to bookings, Hibs the second lowest. My impression is that nothing much has changed.

I'm sure you're right in that this is purely due to residual incompetence rather than anything more sinister. :thumbsup:
ETims - I think - ran a piece that seemed to confirm Celtic enjoyed favourable decisions in the latter stages of games when winning comfortably, the implication being stats are massaged to counter suggestions we don't get the calls.
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asterisk_years
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paulfg42
12 Feb 2018, 03:54 PM
The only problem with fouls to bookings ratios is how many of the fouls were for offences like offside which don't involve violence against an opponent.
I'd expect many of our fouls would be offside, not-so-much the opponent in those games.
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BardseyCelt
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paulfg42
12 Feb 2018, 03:54 PM
The only problem with fouls to bookings ratios is how many of the fouls were for offences like offside which don't involve violence against an opponent.
Are they lumped in with the foul count? I suppose they would be but I've never considered that.
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Wailer
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BardseyCelt
12 Feb 2018, 04:02 PM
paulfg42
12 Feb 2018, 03:54 PM
The only problem with fouls to bookings ratios is how many of the fouls were for offences like offside which don't involve violence against an opponent.
Are they lumped in with the foul count? I suppose they would be but I've never considered that.
I'd guess that the percentage for opposition teams being offside in their foul total will be low, domestically anyway.


The refs recently have watched teams systematically target Celtic players, Tierney especially has been singled out and the refs have ignored it, fecking ridiculous and the wee chats the refs seem to be fond of are nothing but time wasting.
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